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Hey Andrew,=0AI read this as increasing the rate of change of a character -=
 you would get to medium more quickly.=0AThe issue with topping out remains=
, but then extreme characters tend to have alternate things to put ep into.=
=0A=0AI agree with your comment about relative increases, and the nasties w=
ould have to get tougher, and Williem has said it is hard to kill extreme c=
haracters already!=0A=0AI wonder if the main issue is lack of games? or ran=
ge of games?=0AI have heard that some seasons have no low games, or medium =
games or high games so that a PC can sit on the bench for several seasons u=
nable to get a game.=0A=0ANot sure if this adds to the debate or not, but p=
erhaps there are a combination of solutions?=0A=0AIan=0A=0A=0A=0A__________=
______________________=0AFrom: Andrew Withy <awithy@ihug.co.nz>=0ATo: dq@dq=
...sf.org.nz=0ASent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 8:30:26 PM=0ASubject: Re: [dq] Ru=
les change discussion on Experience Points=0A=0A=0AI don=E2=80=99t see any =
need for an EP increase. Some people prefer playing characters at low to me=
dium levels, some prefer them at high.=0A=C2=A0=0AOne problem with the sugg=
estion below is that low, medium, and high are relative terms. If we double=
 the EP, we will merely change the practical divisions between the categori=
es. Items are also an essential distinction between the levels. Some people=
 go on games that give them lots of items, and that=E2=80=99s an existing w=
ay of getting a character that is tough faster. Others don=E2=80=99t have t=
hat need/approach.=0A=C2=A0=0AAn alternative approach is to allow players t=
o choose to start (?one of?) their characters with 50,000 ep, or 200,000 ep=
, or whatever. I=E2=80=99m also against that proposal, but feel it might ad=
dress Michael=E2=80=99s concerns more effectively.=0A=C2=A0=0AAndrew=0A=C2=
=A0=0A=0A________________________________=0A=0AFrom:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [=
mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Michael Young=0ASent: Thursday, =
14 May 2009 7:44 p.m.=0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=0ASubject: [dq] Rules change di=
scussion on Experience Points=0A=C2=A0=0AHowdy folks, =0AI'd like to start =
a discussion on the amount of experience given out for games. In my opinion=
 it is too low. I'd like to see it increased by between 50 and 100 percent.=
=0AA straight percentage add across all levels of the game is probably fair=
er although I think you could make a case for a scaled increase. For exampl=
e: 100% increase for Very Low and Extreme Level, 75% increase for Low and V=
ery High Level and 50% increase for Medium and High Level games.=0ASure it =
will benefit the people that only have one or two characters the most (and =
play them alternatively), but I suspect that this is a minority. More exper=
ience=C2=A0may encourage people to play more characters, as it will be easi=
er/faster to develop them to levels where they become interesting and fun t=
o play. Most of us (I'm guessing here) have between three and five characte=
rs (I have 5 myself).=0AMaybe more experience would encourage broader devel=
opment of characters. For example, Languages and Artisan skills.=0AMore exp=
erience at the bottom of the game will move people faster into Medium Level=
 where many of the games take place. This gives players greater choices to =
play with new GMs and players instead of being forced to play in the one Lo=
w Level game that is going that session with the same bunch of Low Level ch=
aracters they saw last session. This would benefit new players and ultimate=
ly us all. Currently I never see new players, as they never appear in High =
Level plus games. But if they appear in Medium Level games more quickly I a=
m more likely to run into them as at least two of my characters can play at=
 this level.=0AFor the casual players who plays one session in every 3 to 5=
 (And there are some) they will see more rapid development because instead =
of having between 20,000 to 30,000 experience to spend in a 12 month period=
 they will have 40,000 to 60,000 to spend per year.=0AFor people with four =
or more characters, it is not unusual to be unable to get a game for a char=
acter for two or three years at a time It=E2=80=99s pretty demoralizing to =
have two or three years of ranking time and a pitiful amount of experience =
to spend.=0AThere may be other ways to address some of the issues raised he=
re. For example:=0A1) Get rid of the Very Low Game and start people at Low =
Level. This would give them approximately 3000 to 3900 extra per game (Stil=
l too low in my opinion).=0A2) For the first year a character doesn=E2=80=
=99t play they are awarded 10,000 experience plus 2,500 experience per sess=
ion thereafter. This would also benefit casual and returning players.=0A=C2=
=A0=0ARegards,=0AMichael Young
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV>Hey Andrew,</DIV>=0A<DIV>I read this as increasing the=
 rate of change of a character - you would get to medium more quickly.</DIV=
>=0A<DIV>The issue with topping out remains, but then extreme characters te=
nd to have alternate things to put ep into.</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DI=
V>I agree with your comment about relative increases, and the nasties would=
 have to get tougher, and Williem has said it is hard to kill extreme chara=
cters already!</DIV>=0A<DIV><BR>I wonder if the main issue is lack of games=
? or range of games?</DIV>=0A<DIV>I have heard that some seasons have no lo=
w games, or medium games or high games so that a PC can sit on the bench fo=
r several seasons unable to get a game.</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>No=
t sure if this adds to the debate or not, but perhaps there are a combinati=
on of solutions?</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Ian</DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"><BR=
>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Andrew Withy &lt;awithy@ihug.co.nz=
&gt;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz=
<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Thursday, 14 May,=
 2009 8:30:26 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B=
> Re: [dq] Rules change discussion on Experience Points<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<S=
TYLE>=0A<!--=0A =0A _filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4=
 2 4;}=0A =0Ap.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal=0A=09{margin:0cm;marg=
in-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman";}=0Aa:link=
, span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=0Aa:visite=
d, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}=
=0Ap=0A=09{margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"T=
imes New Roman";}=0Aspan.EmailStyle18=0A=09{font-family:Arial;color:navy;}=
=0A _filtered {margin:72.0pt 89.85pt 72.0pt 89.85pt;}=0Adiv.Section1=0A=09{=
}=0A-->=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV class=3DSection1>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT=
 face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: =
navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don=E2=80=99t see any need for an EP increase. =
Some people prefer playing characters at low to medium levels, some prefer =
them at high.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial c=
olor=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMI=
LY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DAri=
al color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-=
FAMILY: Arial">One problem with the suggestion below is that low, medium, a=
nd high are relative terms. If we double the EP, we will merely change the =
practical divisions between the categories. Items are also an essential dis=
tinction between the levels. Some people go on games that give them lots of=
 items, and that=E2=80=99s an existing way of getting a character that is t=
ough faster. Others don=E2=80=99t have that need/approach.</SPAN></FONT></P=
>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN sty=
le=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT=
></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">An alternative =
approach is to allow players to choose to start (?one of?) their characters=
 with 50,000 ep, or 200,000 ep, or whatever. I=E2=80=99m also against that =
proposal, but feel it might address Michael=E2=80=99s concerns more effecti=
vely.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dn=
avy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Aria=
l">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=
=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Andrew</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial c=
olor=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMI=
LY: Arial">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<HR tabIndex=3D-1 align=3Dcenter wi=
dth=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>=0A</SPAN></FONT></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FO=
NT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=
 [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Beh=
alf Of </SPAN></B>Michael Young<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sen=
t:</SPAN></B> Thursday, 14 May 2009 7:44 p.m.<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEI=
GHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:=
 bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> [dq] Rules change discussion on Experience Point=
s</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Ro=
man" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<D=
IV>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">Howdy folks, </SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" s=
ize=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I'd like to start a discussion on t=
he amount of experience given out for games. In my opinion it is too low. I=
'd like to see it increased by between 50 and 100 percent.</SPAN></FONT></P=
>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10=
pt">A straight percentage add across all levels of the game is probably fai=
rer although I think you could make a case for a scaled increase. For examp=
le: 100% increase for Very Low and Extreme Level, 75% increase for Low and =
Very High Level and 50% increase for Medium and High Level games.</SPAN></F=
ONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-S=
IZE: 10pt">Sure it will benefit the people that only have one or two charac=
ters the most (and play them alternatively), but I suspect that this is a m=
inority. More experience&nbsp;may encourage people to play more characters,=
 as it will be easier/faster to develop them to levels where they become in=
teresting and fun to play. Most of us (I'm guessing here) have between thre=
e and five characters (I have 5 myself).</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=
=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Maybe more ex=
perience would encourage broader development of characters. For example, La=
nguages and Artisan skills.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">More experience at the bott=
om of the game will move people faster into Medium Level where many of the =
games take place. This gives players greater choices to play with new GMs a=
nd players instead of being forced to play in the one Low Level game that i=
s going that session with the same bunch of Low Level characters they saw l=
ast session. This would benefit new players and ultimately us all. Currentl=
y I never see new players, as they never appear in High Level plus games. B=
ut if they appear in Medium Level games more quickly I am more likely to ru=
n into them as at least two of my characters can play at this level.</SPAN>=
</FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt">For the casual players who plays one session in every 3 to 5 =
(And there are some) they will see more rapid development because instead o=
f having between 20,000 to 30,000 experience to spend in a 12 month period =
they will have 40,000 to 60,000 to spend per year.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><=
FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For =
people with four or more characters, it is not unusual to be unable to get =
a game for a character for two or three years at a time It=E2=80=99s pretty=
 demoralizing to have two or three years of ranking time and a pitiful amou=
nt of experience to spend.</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New R=
oman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">There may be other ways to a=
ddress some of the issues raised here. For example:</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P>=
<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1) =
Get rid of the Very Low Game and start people at Low Level. This would give=
 them approximately 3000 to 3900 extra per game (Still too low in my opinio=
n).</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2) For the first year a character doesn=E2=80=99t p=
lay they are awarded 10,000 experience plus 2,500 experience per session th=
ereafter. This would also benefit casual and returning players.</SPAN></FON=
T></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZ=
E: 10pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=
=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT =
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Michael Y=
oung</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN s=
tyle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P>=0A<P><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></P=
></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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I am reminded of a short story I once read about three blind wisemen and =
an elephant. The wisemen each having touched only part of the creature =
knew what an elephant was argued long and pointlessly.

Now I'm not saying we don't have an problem, but is the problem low ep =
slowing character development, a lack of suitable games so characters =
can't earn ep, the total uselessness of newly generated characters....=20
Or like that elephant in part all of the above.

There is no doubt that character development is slow in our game System, =
but having played one of the very few non mages up into those high + =
levels I can confidently state that it is not ep that ultimately =
controls a PCs development but training time (Thorn had over 70,000 =
unspent ep at the end summer 2008) and while my mages could always do =
with more ep, even my lowest character after her first adventure has =
almost 9 month worth training to do.

>More experience may encourage people to play more characters, as it =
will be easier/faster to develop them to levels where they become =
interesting and fun to play. Most of us (I'm guessing here) have between =
three and five characters (I have 5 myself).

Firstly I agree with Andrew if you increase the ep you just "change the =
practical divisions between the categories".=20
Secondly in the last year 18 months I have started 2 new characters =
compared to my older characters they can do very little; I have not been =
bored playing them, but can see that a lone new PC in a developed party =
could be pushed to one side, particularly if its a new player with a new =
character, but that's not a lack of PC experience, its a lack of Player =
experience.

As Andrew says the real difference in levels is in items and as we GMs =
are used to parties that have them to toss about, so games are usually =
geared that way. Low /starting characters just don't have them to toss.
The need then is to run genuine Low games for these newbie's, and that =
requires us old hands to have some genuine lows to play too, not those =
15+ adventure lows I seem to get whenever I've advertised a low =
adventure.
Sadly your not the only one who finds bunny PC useless and boring to =
play so we don't see many started.

>Maybe more experience would encourage broader development of =
characters. For example, Languages and Artisan skills.

Such skills are usually added later in a characters development after =
all the weapons and major skills are toped out and another rank in a =
spell is too expensive, more ep would not change this.
As I said above its not the lack of ep that controls development, but =
training time would you rather spend those weeks adding to your weapons =
skill which will help next adventure or learning a language you may not =
use for 5 years or more.

>More experience at the bottom of the game will move people faster into =
Medium Level where many of the games take place.=20
>This gives players greater choices to play with new GMs and players =
instead of being forced to play in the one Low Level game that is going =
that session with the same bunch of Low Level characters they saw last =
session. This would benefit new players and ultimately us all.=20

The majority of the PC's in The Guild are medium, thus most of the =
players want/need medium games.=20
However as there are so few low PCs there is rarely enough low PCs to =
require more than 1 game.
Its a supply and demand thing, if there where/are a lot of PCs requiring =
low games then GMs would have to be found to run them.

The adventure wanted page on the wiki was created to give us all an idea =
whose available and of what demand there is for games of each level.
If players can't get games of the right level then maybe they should use =
this page more.
=20
However I do feel that perhaps the answer to this problem lies not so =
much in giving more experience for games played but in amending =
character generation.
I know of at least 1 GM who has used their GMing ep to give a newly =
generated character a boost before play, to make it more interesting and =
fun to play.=20

A newly generated character has no spells ranked so unless your the kind =
of player who will attempt to pulse cast a 12% CC spell your probably =
not doing magic the first time out, so how do you contribute to a party? =
=20
All that generation gives you is and artisan skill and then you get  250 =
points to get skills and weapons.
So you get rank 0 in a skill for 100 and then rank 0 maybe rank 1 in a =
weapon if you lucky, or you throw the whole lot into weapons and have =
some defence too. The 1 skill at 0 had better be ranger, Milsci, =
troubadour or courtier to of use on adventure else its just a saving of =
8 weeks training time later. And weapons skills... even if you character =
is supposed to be a fighting spell caster, we all know bunnies are just =
two pulses of sticky melee zone and can't hit anything with AG or def.

I spent a very small amount of the first sessions ep on both my new PCs =
fixing this... uselessness, however it's taken the bulk of the 6- 9 =
months they had off training. With 4 characters I can do this, if your a =
New player with your first character that's a problem, you want to be =
able to go out again next season with the same PC. This tends to push =
Players into ranking spells, which eats EP, but doesn't develop rounded =
characters with artisan skills and languages.=20

If one was to just add a zero to the character Generation points making =
them 2500 the resulting difference in ability and Playability of a =
starting character would be huge.=20
And the difference it should make to ranking after that first adventure =
and later ones should produce characters able to step up levels after =
fewer adventures if that's what the player wants.
another 2250 is not much ep but its not the ep that's makes the =
difference its how you use it, its the 3 months plus training time it =
saves at those low levels that will make the difference. To be able to =
spend a week or three ranking skills on return from adventure rather =
than low ranks in weapons or just ranking spells; to be able train =
higher ranks in weapons rather than using the time learning a skill to =
rank zero.
And if your not trying to catch up in developing a rounded character, =
you could be ready to transition to medium/low much sooner, Non mages =
can do so after only 2 or 3 adventures, as in truth they are only really =
as weak or strong as the parties ability to buff them by that stage, and =
not because they start with half a games more ep but because they start =
with more skills and at better ranks.

Helen

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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff background=3D""><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am reminded of =
a short story=20
I once read about three blind wisemen and an elephant. The =
wisemen&nbsp;each=20
having touched only part of the creature knew what an elephant was =
argued long=20
and pointlessly.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Now I'm not saying we =
don't have an=20
problem, but is the problem low ep slowing character development, a lack =
of=20
suitable games so characters can't earn ep, the total uselessness of =
newly=20
generated characters.... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Or like that elephant =
in part all of=20
the above.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>There is no doubt that =
character=20
development is slow in our game System, but having played one of the =
very few=20
non mages up into those high + levels I can confidently state that it is =
not ep=20
that ultimately controls a PCs development but training time (Thorn had =
over=20
70,000 unspent ep at the end summer 2008) and while my mages could =
always do=20
with more ep, even my lowest character&nbsp;after her&nbsp;first =
adventure has=20
almost&nbsp;9 month&nbsp;worth training to do.</FONT></DIV><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT><BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>&gt;More experience may encourage people to play more =
characters, as it=20
will be easier/faster to develop them to levels where they become =
interesting=20
and fun to play. Most of us (I'm guessing here) have between three and =
five=20
characters (I have 5 myself).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Firstly I agree with =
Andrew if you=20
increase the ep you just "<FONT color=3D#000080>change the practical =
divisions=20
between the categories". </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Secondly in the=20
last year 18 months I have started 2 new characters compared to my older =

characters they can do very little; I have not been bored playing them, =
but can=20
see that a lone new PC&nbsp;in a developed party could be pushed to one =
side,=20
particularly if its a new player with a new character, but that's not a =
lack of=20
PC experience, its a lack of Player experience.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>As Andrew says the real =
difference in=20
levels is in items and as&nbsp;we GMs are&nbsp;used to&nbsp;parties that =
have=20
them to toss about, so&nbsp;games are usually geared that way. Low =
/starting=20
characters just don't have them to toss.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>The need then is to run =
genuine Low=20
games for these newbie's, and that requires us old hands to have some =
genuine=20
lows to play too, not those 15+ adventure&nbsp;lows I seem to get =
whenever I've=20
advertised a low adventure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Sadly your not the only =
one who finds=20
bunny PC useless and boring to play so we don't see many=20
started.</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<DIV><BR>&gt;Maybe more experience would encourage broader development =
of=20
characters. For example, Languages and Artisan skills.</DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Such skills are =
usually added=20
later in a characters development after all the weapons and major skills =
are=20
toped out and another rank in a spell is too expensive, more ep would =
not change=20
this.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>As I said above its not the lack of ep that =
controls=20
development, but training time would you rather spend&nbsp;those weeks =
adding to=20
your weapons skill which will help next adventure or learning a language =
you may=20
not use for 5 years or more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT><BR>&gt;More experience at the bottom =
of the=20
game will move people faster into Medium Level where many of the games =
take=20
place. </DIV>
<DIV>&gt;This gives players greater choices to play with new GMs and =
players=20
instead of being forced to play in the one Low Level game that is going =
that=20
session with the same bunch of Low Level characters they saw last =
session. This=20
would benefit new players and ultimately us all. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The majority of the PC's in The Guild are =
medium, thus=20
most of the players want/need medium games. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>However as&nbsp;there are so few=20
low&nbsp;PCs&nbsp;there is rarely enough low PCs to require more than 1=20
game.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Its a supply and demand thing, if there =
where/are a lot=20
of PCs requiring low games then GMs would&nbsp;have to be found to run=20
them.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The adventure wanted page on the wiki was =
created to=20
give&nbsp;us all an idea whose available and of what demand there=20
is</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff>for games of each =
level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>If players can't get games of the right level =
then=20
maybe they should use this page more.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>However I do feel that perhaps the answer to =
this=20
problem lies not so much in giving more experience for games =
played&nbsp;but in=20
amending character generation.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I know of at least 1 GM who has used their =
GMing ep to=20
give a newly generated character a boost before play, to make it more=20
interesting and fun to play. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>A newly generated character&nbsp;has no =
spells ranked=20
so unless your the kind of player who will attempt to pulse cast a 12% =
CC spell=20
your probably not&nbsp;doing magic the first time out, so how do you =
contribute=20
to a party?&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>All that generation gives you is and artisan =
skill and=20
then you get &nbsp;250 points to get skills and weapons.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>So you&nbsp;get rank&nbsp;0 in&nbsp;a =
skill&nbsp;for=20
100 and then rank 0 maybe rank 1 in a weapon if you lucky, or you throw =
the=20
whole lot into weapons and have some defence too. The 1 skill at&nbsp;0 =
had=20
better be ranger, Milsci, troubadour or courtier to of use on adventure =
else its=20
just a saving of 8 weeks training time later. And weapons skills... even =
if you=20
character is supposed to be a fighting spell caster, we all know bunnies =
are=20
just two pulses of sticky melee zone and can't hit anything with AG or=20
def.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>I spent a very small amount of the first =
sessions ep on=20
both my new PCs fixing this... uselessness, however it's taken the bulk =
of=20
the&nbsp;6- 9 months they had off training. With 4 characters I can do =
this, if=20
your a New player with your first character that's a problem, you want =
to be=20
able to go out again next season with the same PC. This tends to push =
Players=20
into ranking spells, which eats EP, but doesn't develop rounded =
characters with=20
artisan skills and languages. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>If one was to just add a zero to the =
character=20
Generation points making them 2500 the resulting difference in ability =
and=20
Playability of a starting character would be huge. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>And the difference it should make =
to&nbsp;ranking after=20
that first adventure and later ones should produce characters able to =
step up=20
levels after fewer adventures if that's what the player =
wants.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>another 2250 is not much ep but its not the =
ep that's=20
makes the difference its how you use it, its the 3 months plus training =
time it=20
saves at those low levels that will make the difference. To be able to =
spend a=20
week or three ranking skills on return from adventure rather than low =
ranks in=20
weapons or just ranking spells; to&nbsp;be able train higher ranks in =
weapons=20
rather than using the time learning a skill to rank zero.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff>And if your not trying to catch up&nbsp;in =
developing a=20
rounded character, you&nbsp;could be ready to transition to medium/low =
much=20
sooner, Non mages can do&nbsp;so after only 2 or 3 adventures, as in =
truth they=20
are only really as weak or strong as the parties ability to buff them by =
that=20
stage, and&nbsp;not because they start with half a games more ep but =
because=20
they start with more skills and at better ranks.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>Helen<BR></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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--0016364ef1cc9ced6f0469ea2ee6
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Disclaimer: I greatly enjoy and largely run Bunny and Low level adventures=
,
and believe they are vital to getting new players.]

I'm not precisely sure of your purpose of your prosposal as you've lead wit=
h
the solution, so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick.

Introducing rule changes to accelerate all characters progress through the
formative stage of their growth so they are able to have a greater range of
more effective abilites more quickly would definitely work, if the goal is =
a
game-wide increase in "power-level".

I'm not convinced that removing or severly truncating that stage mean more
fun for all players, espcially if it's a blanket imposition.

Individual players have always had the option of heading out on adventures
above their supposed level, and recieving items and EP to fuel a more
meteoric rise in exchange for increased peril they face on those
adventures.  It's also the kind of challange that a would suit the more
driven personality of a character (and player) who might strive for path.

Traditionally certain GMs have strongly reward characters based on the
action and danger of their games, relative to the advertised level, and I'd
expect that these games appeal to players wish to see their characters
abilities and strength grow quickly.  As it is, characters hardly remain as
Bunnies for the duration of more than a single adventure and Low for little
longer.

For me, one of the defintive facets of DQ is a gradual character developmen=
t
and period of growth into the more complex and "hard core" possibilities of
the game.  Additionally, I think that stripping it out would make the game
even less accessible to new entrants than it currently is.


***

However, I wouldn't (strenously) object to individually charcters being
"forwarded" EP to catch up with a group or tier of gameplay that they
prefer, though I suspect that until they make up the deficit in items and
abilities Ranks and Stats will not

Also I personally only actively run 2-3 characters, meaning that time is fa=
r
more a impostion on their advancement of Ranks in skills and magic.  Most o=
f
them have pool of excess EP or wind up spending based on the available
downtime.





regards,

ben




On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Michael Young <mhyoung@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>  Howdy folks,
>
> I'd like to start a discussion on the amount of experience given out for
> games. In my opinion it is too low. I'd like to see it increased by betwe=
en
> 50 and 100 percent.
>
> A straight percentage add across all levels of the game is probably faire=
r
> although I think you could make a case for a scaled increase. For example=
:
> 100% increase for Very Low and Extreme Level, 75% increase for Low and Ve=
ry
> High Level and 50% increase for Medium and High Level games.
>
> Sure it will benefit the people that only have one or two characters the
> most (and play them alternatively), but I suspect that this is a minority=
.
> More experience may encourage people to play more characters, as it will =
be
> easier/faster to develop them to levels where they become interesting and
> fun to play. Most of us (I'm guessing here) have between three and five
> characters (I have 5 myself).
>
> Maybe more experience would encourage broader development of characters.
> For example, Languages and Artisan skills.
>
> More experience at the bottom of the game will move people faster into
> Medium Level where many of the games take place. This gives players great=
er
> choices to play with new GMs and players instead of being forced to play =
in
> the one Low Level game that is going that session with the same bunch of =
Low
> Level characters they saw last session. This would benefit new players an=
d
> ultimately us all. Currently I never see new players, as they never appea=
r
> in High Level plus games. But if they appear in Medium Level games more
> quickly I am more likely to run into them as at least two of my character=
s
> can play at this level.
>
> For the casual players who plays one session in every 3 to 5 (And there a=
re
> some) they will see more rapid development because instead of having betw=
een
> 20,000 to 30,000 experience to spend in a 12 month period they will have
> 40,000 to 60,000 to spend per year.
>
> For people with four or more characters, it is not unusual to be unable t=
o
> get a game for a character for two or three years at a time It=92s pretty
> demoralizing to have two or three years of ranking time and a pitiful amo=
unt
> of experience to spend.
>
> There may be other ways to address some of the issues raised here. For
> example:
>
> 1) Get rid of the Very Low Game and start people at Low Level. This would
> give them approximately 3000 to 3900 extra per game (Still too low in my
> opinion).
>
> 2) For the first year a character doesn=92t play they are awarded 10,000
> experience plus 2,500 experience per session thereafter. This would also
> benefit casual and returning players.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Young
>
>
>
>
>

--0016364ef1cc9ced6f0469ea2ee6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[Disclaimer: I greatly enjoy and largely run Bunny and Low level adventures=
, and believe they are vital to getting new players.]<br><br>I&#39;m not pr=
ecisely sure of your purpose of your prosposal as you&#39;ve lead with the =
solution, so forgive me if I&#39;ve got the wrong end of the stick.<br>
<br>Introducing rule changes to accelerate all characters progress through =
the formative stage of their growth so they are able to have a greater rang=
e of more effective abilites more quickly would definitely work, if the goa=
l is a game-wide increase in &quot;power-level&quot;.<br>
<br>I&#39;m not convinced that removing or severly truncating that stage me=
an more fun for all players, espcially if it&#39;s a blanket imposition.<br=
><br>Individual players have always had the option of heading out on advent=
ures above their supposed level, and recieving items and EP to fuel a more =
meteoric rise in exchange for increased peril they face on those adventures=
.=A0 It&#39;s also the kind of challange that a would suit the more driven =
personality of a character (and player) who might strive for path.<br>
<br>Traditionally certain GMs have strongly reward characters based on the =
action and danger of their games, relative to the advertised level, and I&#=
39;d expect that these games appeal to players wish to see their characters=
 abilities and strength grow quickly.=A0 As it is, characters hardly remain=
 as Bunnies for the duration of more than a single adventure and Low for li=
ttle longer.<br>
<br>For me, one of the defintive facets of DQ is a gradual character develo=
pment and period of growth into the more complex and &quot;hard core&quot; =
possibilities of=A0 the game.=A0 Additionally, I think that stripping it ou=
t would make the game even less accessible to new entrants than it currentl=
y is.<br>
<br><br>***<br><br>However, I wouldn&#39;t (strenously) object to individua=
lly charcters being &quot;forwarded&quot; EP to catch up with a group or ti=
er of gameplay that they prefer, though I suspect that until they make up t=
he deficit in items and abilities Ranks and Stats will not <br>
<br>Also I personally only actively run 2-3 characters, meaning that time i=
s far more a impostion on their advancement of Ranks in skills and magic.=
=A0 Most of them have pool of excess EP or wind up spending based on the av=
ailable downtime.<br>
<br><br><br><br><br>regards,<br><br>ben<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Michael Young <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mhyoung@ihug.co.nz">mhyoung@ihug.co.nz</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff">
<div align=3D"justify"><font size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">
<p align=3D"justify">Howdy folks, </p>
<p align=3D"justify">I&#39;d like to start a discussion on the amount of ex=
perience=20
given out for games. In my opinion it is too low. I&#39;d like to see it in=
creased=20
by between 50 and 100 percent.</p>
<p align=3D"justify">A straight percentage add across all levels of the gam=
e is=20
probably fairer although I think you could make a case for a scaled increas=
e.=20
For example: 100% increase for Very Low and Extreme Level, 75% increase for=
 Low=20
and Very High Level and 50% increase for Medium and High Level games.</p>
<p align=3D"justify">Sure it will benefit the people that only have one or =
two=20
characters the most (and play them alternatively), but I suspect that this =
is a=20
minority. More experience=A0may encourage people to play more characters, a=
s=20
it will be easier/faster to develop them to levels where they become intere=
sting=20
and fun to play. Most of us (I&#39;m guessing here) have between three and =
five=20
characters (I have 5 myself).</p>
<p align=3D"justify">Maybe more experience would encourage broader developm=
ent of=20
characters. For example, Languages and Artisan skills.</p>
<p align=3D"justify">More experience at the bottom of the game will move pe=
ople=20
faster into Medium Level where many of the games take place. This gives pla=
yers=20
greater choices to play with new GMs and players instead of being forced to=
 play=20
in the one Low Level game that is going that session with the same bunch of=
 Low=20
Level characters they saw last session. This would benefit new players and=
=20
ultimately us all. Currently I never see new players, as they never appear =
in=20
High Level plus games. But if they appear in Medium Level games more quickl=
y I=20
am more likely to run into them as at least two of my characters can play a=
t=20
this level.</p>
<p align=3D"justify">For the casual players who plays one session in every =
3 to 5=20
(And there are some) they will see more rapid development because instead o=
f=20
having between 20,000 to 30,000 experience to spend in a 12 month period th=
ey=20
will have 40,000 to 60,000 to spend per year.</p>
<p align=3D"justify">For people with four or more characters, it is not unu=
sual to=20
be unable to get a game for a character for two or three years at a time It=
=92s=20
pretty demoralizing to have two or three years of ranking time and a pitifu=
l=20
amount of experience to spend.</p>
<p>There may be other ways to address some of the issues raised here. For=
=20
example:</p>
<p>1) Get rid of the Very Low Game and start people at Low Level. This woul=
d=20
give them approximately 3000 to 3900 extra per game (Still too low in my=20
opinion).</p>
<p>2) For the first year a character doesn=92t play they are awarded 10,000=
=20
experience plus 2,500 experience per session thereafter. This would also be=
nefit=20
casual and returning players.</p>
<p>=A0</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Michael Young</p></font></font>
<p><font size=3D"2"></font>=A0</p>
<p><font size=3D"2"></font>=A0</p></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br>

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