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Hey there
I find myself in disagreement with Michael P.
I too have found through bitter experience that over-strengthening increases
the chance of a mishap (fumble) and the consequences of the mishap (injury).
So I agree with Michael Scott's comments.
Of course I will bow to better philosophical arguments: it is a rare day in
an advanced civilization that experience triumphs over policy. We are after
all playing a game rather than a simulation, so the policy of what we want
to experience is more important than any other consideration. (it is like an
accountant trying to explain to staff that safety procedures are to protect
the company from litigation for failure to care, which protects their jobs,
which is the purpose after all.)
If people want to increase their damage more than the rules currently allow
then we must change the rules.
Melee combat is not going to break the game if we doubled melee damage.
If you agree that our game-experience is more important than our simulated
logic then please skip to the final paragraph.
However, if you do think a relationship to reality is important then please
read on.
<I have made the main suggestion bold, not to yell, but to make it stand
out>
Not a great analogy I know to comment on golf, but few people would stay
still long enough for me to test over-strengthening with a sword (or even
when I offered to use a golf club as a stick) .
Now we knowingly suspect that golf was so named because all the other four
letter words were taken, so I thought to comment that golf clubs have a
natural swing based on the design and materials of the club. Bit of a
stretch to over-strengthening weapons, but there is anecdotal evidence that
both were developed by Scots.
Over-strengthening the swing will result in a fumble. Most of the time
rather than some of the time. Because the swing is off.
Trust me on this, and I don't mean over-exerting the wielder, just more
power than the club can convey at the correct time.
Or too little power for the club to exert.
The answer is to get a club that is suitable to the strength of the swing.
Because if you want to swing a club for an hour it helps to swing at your
natural rate.
Also an axe has a natural swing. Over-strengthening an axe is not clever,
especially under time constraints. You want to swing the axe at the natural
rhythm of the axe, not the wielder. Reduce the frequency of the swings and
you can swing as hard as you want, but watch that your feet are well away
from the target. saws, power saws, chainsaws, drills, and other tools are
similar, all use the natural cut of the tool and over-forcing the tool is
dangerous, and one of the first SAFETY lessons drilled into professionals
that use them.
I would guess the same is true for a sword. If you over-strength the swing
or lunge of a sword then the timing will be out because the sword is not
designed to be swung in that manner.
IM(H)O if we want to make over-strengthening weapon swings to be 'normal'
practice then the weapon needs to be modified from the 'normal' to take the
additional strength - tuned to the ST by a competent weaponsmith at time of
manufacture - which would perhaps remove the increased chance of fumble: the
wise warrior practices with a weapon to determine how it should be swung. IT
may be possible to re-tune an existing weapon.
The above analogies can be argued but the point is that I want the
application of more strength to a weapon than it is designed and made for
will increase the chance of a fumble. The explanation is not important, even
though I am giving one: clubs, tools and weapons each have a natural swing
determined by their design and manufacture rather than by the wielder.
PCs that want to consistently over-strength a given type of weapon will buy
one that I tuned to their strength and include the (tuned strength)
description in their write-up of the weapon.
Anyway, we want the ability to over-strength weapons so yes to any practical
suggestion for this to happen.
I would also like weapons to be slightly different. One way is to have them
tuned to a natural ST with the chance of a fumble increasing if a different
ST is applied. (default (and minimum) is the book value, so Stephen's
suggestion works as is).
Ian
(H) = optional humility.
_____
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Michael Parkinson
Sent: 29 August 2009 15:07
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Overstrength Damage with Weapons
Michael Scott said (28/08):
Missing while overstrengthing (or indeed any over comitted strke) throws off
your balance leaving you vunrable to reteliation, slows your reaction time
and basicaly leaves you spent giving the iniative to your opponant.
To use your exaple with the axe, overstreangthing as opposed to perfect form
increases the likelihood of injury. By throwing off the natural swing of the
axe and body you increase the chance of damaging your self wheather you hit
or not.
Indeed - but overstrengthing IS your natural swing. We're saying someone
with 22 strength WILL chop wood more effectively thank someone with 12
strength: not because he is "pushing" himself, or "over-committing" himself,
but because he has more muscle to put into his natural swing. Of course if
the strength is Un-natural (e.g., if gain super-strength from magic,
especially the first few times), perhaps the GM should throw some hassles
some hassles at that character.
But for an experienced fighter consistently fighting at a strength above the
mere minimum weapon, their *chance* of fumbling should not increase,
although .
Michael Scott said:
The smallest hitch in your swing can be the difference between a solid
biteting bow
and one which bonces and hit your leg (yes I speak from experiance both
personal and observed). Missing not only can
throw out your back but cause you to take out your own foot or that of your
buddy (again both personal and observed experiance).
. which is why a fumble with extra strength behind it is probably, but not
always, going to be more dangerous than a fumble with less strength. But I
stick to the original point: There is NO good, intuitive reason why
over-strengthing increases a fumble.
regards, Michael Parkinson
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hey =
there<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I find myself in disagreement with =
Michael
P.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I too have found through bitter =
experience
that over-strengthening increases the chance of a mishap (fumble) and =
the
consequences of the mishap (injury). So I agree with Michael =
Scott’s
comments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Of course I will bow to better
philosophical arguments: it is a rare day in an advanced civilization =
that experience
triumphs over policy. We are after all playing a game rather than a =
simulation,
so the policy of what we want to experience is more important than any =
other
consideration. (it is like an accountant trying to explain to staff that =
safety
procedures are to protect the company from litigation for failure to =
care,
which protects their jobs, which is the purpose after =
all.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold'>=
If people
want to increase their damage more than the rules currently allow then =
we must change
the rules. <o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Melee combat is not going to break =
the
game if we doubled melee damage.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If you agree that our =
game-experience is
more important than our simulated logic then please skip to the final
paragraph.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>However, if you do think a =
relationship to
reality is important then please read on. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><I have made the main suggestion =
bold, not
to yell, but to make it stand out><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Not a great analogy I know to =
comment on
golf, but few people would stay still long enough for me to test
over-strengthening with a sword (or even when I offered to use a golf =
club as a
stick) … <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now we knowingly suspect that golf =
was so
named because all the other four letter words were taken, so I thought =
to
comment that golf clubs have a natural swing based on the design and =
materials of
the club. Bit of a stretch to over-strengthening weapons, but there is
anecdotal evidence that both were developed by =
Scots.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Over-strengthening the swing will =
result
in a fumble. Most of the time rather than some of the time. Because the =
swing
is off.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Trust me on this, and I don’t =
mean
over-exerting the wielder, just more power than the club can convey at =
the correct
time. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Or too little power for the club to =
exert.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The answer is to get a club that is
suitable to the strength of the swing. Because if you want to swing a =
club for
an hour it helps to swing at your natural =
rate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Also an axe has a natural swing. =
Over-strengthening
an axe is not clever, especially under time constraints. You want to =
swing the
axe at the natural rhythm of the axe, not the wielder. Reduce the =
frequency of
the swings and you can swing as hard as you want, but watch that your =
feet are
well away from the target… saws, power saws, chainsaws, drills, =
and other
tools are similar, all use the natural cut of the tool and over-forcing =
the
tool is dangerous, and one of the first SAFETY lessons drilled into
professionals that use them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would guess the same is true for =
a
sword. If you over-strength the swing or lunge of a sword then the =
timing will
be out because the sword is not designed to be swung in that =
manner.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold'>=
IM(H)O
if we want to make over-strengthening weapon swings to be =
‘normal’
practice then the weapon needs to be modified from the =
‘normal’ to
take the additional strength – tuned to the ST by a competent =
weaponsmith
at time of manufacture – which would perhaps remove the increased =
chance
of fumble</span></font></b><font color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-family:
Arial;color:navy'>: the wise warrior practices with a weapon to =
determine how
it should be swung<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>. </span></b>IT =
may be
possible to re-tune an existing weapon.<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></b></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The above analogies can be argued =
but the
point is that I want the application of more strength to a weapon than =
it is
designed and made for will increase the chance of a fumble. The =
explanation is not
important, even though I am giving one: clubs, tools and weapons each =
have a
natural swing determined by their design and manufacture rather than by =
the
wielder. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>PCs that want to consistently
over-strength a given type of weapon will buy one that I tuned to their =
strength
and include the (tuned strength) description in their write-up of the =
weapon.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Anyway, we want the ability to
over-strength weapons so yes to any practical suggestion for this to =
happen.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would also like weapons to be =
slightly
different. One way is to have them tuned to a natural ST with the chance =
of a fumble
increasing if a different ST is applied. (default (and minimum) is the =
book
value, so Stephen’s suggestion works as is). =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(H) =3D optional =
humility.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-family:Tahoma'> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Michael
Parkinson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 29 August 2009 =
15:07<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Overstrength
Damage with Weapons</span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Michael Scott =
said
(28/08): <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>Missing while overstrengthing (or indeed any over =
comitted
strke) throws off your balance leaving you vunrable to reteliation, =
slows your
reaction time and basicaly leaves you spent giving the iniative to your
opponant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>To use your exaple with the axe, overstreangthing as =
opposed
to perfect form increases the likelihood of injury. By throwing off the =
natural
swing of the axe and body you increase the chance of damaging your self
wheather you hit or not. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Indeed — but overstrengthing IS your =
natural
swing. We’re saying someone with 22 strength WILL chop wood =
more
effectively thank someone with 12 strength: not because he is
“pushing” himself, or “over-committing” himself, =
but because
he has more muscle to put into his natural swing. Of course =
if the
strength is Un-natural (e.g., if gain super-strength from magic, =
especially the
first few times), perhaps the GM should throw some hassles some hassles =
at that
character. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>But for an experienced fighter consistently =
fighting
at a strength above the mere minimum weapon, their *<b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>chance</span></b>* of fumbling should not increase, although =
…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Michael Scott =
said: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>The smallest hitch in your swing can be the =
difference
between a solid biteting bow <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>and one which bonces and hit your leg (yes I speak =
from
experiance both personal and observed). Missing not only can =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText style=3D'margin-left:36.0pt'><font size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:
"Times New Roman"'>throw out your back but cause you to take out your =
own foot
or that of your buddy (again both personal and observed =
experiance).</span></font><span
lang=3DEN-NZ><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> … which is why a fumble with =
extra
strength behind it is <b><i><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>probably</span></i></b>,
but not always, going to be more dangerous than a fumble with less
strength. But I stick to the original point: There is NO =
good,
intuitive reason why over-strengthing increases a =
fumble.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>regards, Michael =
Parkinson<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoPlainText><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">No virus found in this incoming =
message.<BR>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2330 - Release Date: =
08/28/09 18:10:00<BR>
</FONT></P>
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