--00163628375ae338e404724995cd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can someone please remove me from the dq email list for rules.Thanks
Jono Bean
2009/8/29 Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
> Hey there
>
>
>
> I find myself in disagreement with Michael P.
>
> I too have found through bitter experience that over-strengthening
> increases the chance of a mishap (fumble) and the consequences of the mis=
hap
> (injury). So I agree with Michael Scott=92s comments.
>
>
>
> Of course I will bow to better philosophical arguments: it is a rare day =
in
> an advanced civilization that experience triumphs over policy. We are aft=
er
> all playing a game rather than a simulation, so the policy of what we wan=
t
> to experience is more important than any other consideration. (it is like=
an
> accountant trying to explain to staff that safety procedures are to prote=
ct
> the company from litigation for failure to care, which protects their job=
s,
> which is the purpose after all.)
>
>
>
> *If people want to increase their damage more than the rules currently
> allow then we must change the rules. *
>
> Melee combat is not going to break the game if we doubled melee damage.
>
>
>
> If you agree that our game-experience is more important than our simulate=
d
> logic then please skip to the final paragraph.
>
>
>
> However, if you do think a relationship to reality is important then plea=
se
> read on.
>
> <I have made the main suggestion bold, not to yell, but to make it stand
> out>
>
>
>
> Not a great analogy I know to comment on golf, but few people would stay
> still long enough for me to test over-strengthening with a sword (or even
> when I offered to use a golf club as a stick) =85
>
>
>
> Now we knowingly suspect that golf was so named because all the other fou=
r
> letter words were taken, so I thought to comment that golf clubs have a
> natural swing based on the design and materials of the club. Bit of a
> stretch to over-strengthening weapons, but there is anecdotal evidence th=
at
> both were developed by Scots.
>
>
>
> Over-strengthening the swing will result in a fumble. Most of the time
> rather than some of the time. Because the swing is off.
>
> Trust me on this, and I don=92t mean over-exerting the wielder, just more
> power than the club can convey at the correct time.
>
> Or too little power for the club to exert.
>
> The answer is to get a club that is suitable to the strength of the swing=
.
> Because if you want to swing a club for an hour it helps to swing at your
> natural rate.
>
>
>
> Also an axe has a natural swing. Over-strengthening an axe is not clever,
> especially under time constraints. You want to swing the axe at the natur=
al
> rhythm of the axe, not the wielder. Reduce the frequency of the swings an=
d
> you can swing as hard as you want, but watch that your feet are well away
> from the target=85 saws, power saws, chainsaws, drills, and other tools a=
re
> similar, all use the natural cut of the tool and over-forcing the tool is
> dangerous, and one of the first SAFETY lessons drilled into professionals
> that use them.
>
>
>
> I would guess the same is true for a sword. If you over-strength the swin=
g
> or lunge of a sword then the timing will be out because the sword is not
> designed to be swung in that manner.
>
>
>
> *IM(H)O if we want to make over-strengthening weapon swings to be =91norm=
al=92
> practice then the weapon needs to be modified from the =91normal=92 to ta=
ke the
> additional strength =96 tuned to the ST by a competent weaponsmith at tim=
e of
> manufacture =96 which would perhaps remove the increased chance of fumble=
*:
> the wise warrior practices with a weapon to determine how it should be sw=
ung
> *. *IT may be possible to re-tune an existing weapon.**
>
>
>
> The above analogies can be argued but the point is that I want the
> application of more strength to a weapon than it is designed and made for
> will increase the chance of a fumble. The explanation is not important, e=
ven
> though I am giving one: clubs, tools and weapons each have a natural swin=
g
> determined by their design and manufacture rather than by the wielder.
>
>
>
> PCs that want to consistently over-strength a given type of weapon will b=
uy
> one that I tuned to their strength and include the (tuned strength)
> description in their write-up of the weapon.
>
>
>
> Anyway, we want the ability to over-strength weapons so yes to any
> practical suggestion for this to happen.
>
> I would also like weapons to be slightly different. One way is to have th=
em
> tuned to a natural ST with the chance of a fumble increasing if a differe=
nt
> ST is applied. (default (and minimum) is the book value, so Stephen=92s
> suggestion works as is).
>
>
>
> Ian
>
> (H) =3D optional humility.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Michael Parkinson
> *Sent:* 29 August 2009 15:07
>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Overstrength Damage with Weapons
>
>
>
> Michael Scott said (28/08):
>
> Missing while overstrengthing (or indeed any over comitted strke) throws
> off your balance leaving you vunrable to reteliation, slows your reaction
> time and basicaly leaves you spent giving the iniative to your opponant.
>
> To use your exaple with the axe, overstreangthing as opposed to perfect
> form increases the likelihood of injury. By throwing off the natural swin=
g
> of the axe and body you increase the chance of damaging your self wheathe=
r
> you hit or not.
>
>
>
> Indeed =97 but overstrengthing IS your natural swing. We=92re saying som=
eone
> with 22 strength WILL chop wood more effectively thank someone with 12
> strength: not because he is =93pushing=94 himself, or =93over-committing=
=94 himself,
> but because he has more muscle to put into his natural swing. Of course=
if
> the strength is Un-natural (e.g., if gain super-strength from magic,
> especially the first few times), perhaps the GM should throw some hassles
> some hassles at that character.
>
> But for an experienced fighter consistently fighting at a strength above
> the mere minimum weapon, their **chance** of fumbling should not increase=
,
> although =85
>
>
>
> Michael Scott said:
>
> The smallest hitch in your swing can be the difference between a solid
> biteting bow
>
> and one which bonces and hit your leg (yes I speak from experiance both
> personal and observed). Missing not only can
>
> throw out your back but cause you to take out your own foot or that of yo=
ur
> buddy (again both personal and observed experiance).
>
>
>
> =85 which is why a fumble with extra strength behind it is *probably*, b=
ut
> not always, going to be more dangerous than a fumble with less strength.
> But I stick to the original point: There is NO good, intuitive reason wh=
y
> over-strengthing increases a fumble.
>
>
>
> regards, Michael Parkinson
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2330 - Release Date: 08/28/0=
9
> 18:10:00
>
--=20
Kind regards,
Jonathan Bean
H: +64 9 828 2959
M: +64 21 917 173
G: jonobean@gmail.com
--00163628375ae338e404724995cd
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can someone please remove me from the dq email list for rules.<div>Thanks</=
div><div><br></div><div>Jono Bean</div><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2009/8/29 Ian Wood <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xt=
ra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hey there</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I find myself in disagreement with Mic=
hael
P.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I too have found through bitter experi=
ence
that over-strengthening increases the chance of a mishap (fumble) and the
consequences of the mishap (injury). So I agree with Michael Scott=92s
comments.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Of course I will bow to better
philosophical arguments: it is a rare day in an advanced civilization that =
experience
triumphs over policy. We are after all playing a game rather than a simulat=
ion,
so the policy of what we want to experience is more important than any othe=
r
consideration. (it is like an accountant trying to explain to staff that sa=
fety
procedures are to protect the company from litigation for failure to care,
which protects their jobs, which is the purpose after all.)</span></font></=
p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold">If people
want to increase their damage more than the rules currently allow then we m=
ust change
the rules. </span></font></b></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Melee combat is not going to break the
game if we doubled melee damage.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">If you agree that our game-experience =
is
more important than our simulated logic then please skip to the final
paragraph.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">However, if you do think a relationshi=
p to
reality is important then please read on. </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><I have made the main suggestion bo=
ld, not
to yell, but to make it stand out></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Not a great analogy I know to comment =
on
golf, but few people would stay still long enough for me to test
over-strengthening with a sword (or even when I offered to use a golf club =
as a
stick) =85 </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Now we knowingly suspect that golf was=
so
named because all the other four letter words were taken, so I thought to
comment that golf clubs have a natural swing based on the design and materi=
als of
the club. Bit of a stretch to over-strengthening weapons, but there is
anecdotal evidence that both were developed by Scots.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Over-strengthening the swing will resu=
lt
in a fumble. Most of the time rather than some of the time. Because the swi=
ng
is off.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Trust me on this, and I don=92t mean
over-exerting the wielder, just more power than the club can convey at the =
correct
time. </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Or too little power for the club to ex=
ert.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The answer is to get a club that is
suitable to the strength of the swing. Because if you want to swing a club =
for
an hour it helps to swing at your natural rate.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Also an axe has a natural swing. Over-=
strengthening
an axe is not clever, especially under time constraints. You want to swing =
the
axe at the natural rhythm of the axe, not the wielder. Reduce the frequency=
of
the swings and you can swing as hard as you want, but watch that your feet =
are
well away from the target=85 saws, power saws, chainsaws, drills, and other
tools are similar, all use the natural cut of the tool and over-forcing the
tool is dangerous, and one of the first SAFETY lessons drilled into
professionals that use them.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I would guess the same is true for a
sword. If you over-strength the swing or lunge of a sword then the timing w=
ill
be out because the sword is not designed to be swung in that manner.</span>=
</font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><b><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold">IM(H)O
if we want to make over-strengthening weapon swings to be =91normal=92
practice then the weapon needs to be modified from the =91normal=92 to
take the additional strength =96 tuned to the ST by a competent weaponsmith
at time of manufacture =96 which would perhaps remove the increased chance
of fumble</span></font></b><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Arial;color:navy">: the wise warrior practices with a weapo=
n to determine how
it should be swung<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">. </span></b>IT may b=
e
possible to re-tune an existing weapon.<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=
</span></b></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">The above analogies can be argued but =
the
point is that I want the application of more strength to a weapon than it i=
s
designed and made for will increase the chance of a fumble. The explanation=
is not
important, even though I am giving one: clubs, tools and weapons each have =
a
natural swing determined by their design and manufacture rather than by the
wielder. </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">PCs that want to consistently
over-strength a given type of weapon will buy one that I tuned to their str=
ength
and include the (tuned strength) description in their write-up of the weapo=
n.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Anyway, we want the ability to
over-strength weapons so yes to any practical suggestion for this to happen=
.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I would also like weapons to be slight=
ly
different. One way is to have them tuned to a natural ST with the chance of=
a fumble
increasing if a different ST is applied. (default (and minimum) is the book
value, so Stephen=92s suggestion works as is). =A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ian</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">(H) =3D optional humility.</span></fon=
t></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<div>
<div align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"=
Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times Ne=
w Roman"">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahom=
a"><span style=3D"font-family:Tahoma"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org=
.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner=
@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span>=
</b>Michael
Parkinson<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> 29 August 2009 15:07</=
span></font></p><font face=3D"Tahoma"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.=
sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
</div><div class=3D"im"><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span>=
</b> Re: [dq] Overstrength
Damage with Weapons</div></font><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""></s=
pan></font><p></p>
</div>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=A0</=
span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"">Michael Scott sai=
d
(28/08): </span></font></p><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<p style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman"">Missing while overstrengthing (or indeed any over comitted
strke) throws off your balance leaving you vunrable to reteliation, slows y=
our
reaction time and basicaly leaves you spent giving the iniative to your
opponant.</span></font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman"">To use your exaple with the axe, overstreangthing as opposed
to perfect form increases the likelihood of injury. By throwing off the nat=
ural
swing of the axe and body you increase the chance of damaging your self
wheather you hit or not. </span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">Indeed =97 but overstrengthing IS your natural
swing. =A0We=92re saying someone with 22 strength WILL chop wood more
effectively thank someone with 12 strength: not because he is
=93pushing=94 himself, or =93over-committing=94 himself, but because
he has more muscle to put into his natural swing.=A0 =A0Of course if the
strength is Un-natural (e.g., if gain super-strength from magic, especially=
the
first few times), perhaps the GM should throw some hassles some hassles at =
that
character. =A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">But for an experienced fighter consistently fighting
at a strength above the mere minimum weapon, their *<b><span style=3D"font-=
weight:bold">chance</span></b>* of fumbling should not increase, although =
=85</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"=
font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"">Michael Scott sai=
d: </span></font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman"">The smallest hitch in your swing can be the difference
between a solid biteting bow </span></font></p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman"">and one which bonces and hit your leg (yes I speak from
experiance both personal and observed). Missing not only can </span></font>=
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-left:36.0pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Times New Roman"><=
span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman"">throw out your back but cause you to take out your own foot
or that of your buddy (again both personal and observed experiance).</span>=
</font><span lang=3D"EN-NZ"></span></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0=85 which is why a fumble with extra
strength behind it is <b><i><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-style:ital=
ic">probably</span></i></b>,
but not always, going to be more dangerous than a fumble with less
strength.=A0 But I stick to the original point:=A0 There is NO good,
intuitive reason why over-strengthing increases a fumble.</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">regards, Michael Parkinson</span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span lang=3D"EN-NZ" style=3D"font-siz=
e:11.0pt">=A0</span></font></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">No virus found in this incoming message.=
<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href=3D"http://www.avg.com" target=3D"_blank">www.avg.c=
om</a><br>
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2330 - Release Date: 08/28/09 =
18:10:00<br>
</font></p></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Kind regards=
,<br><br>Jonathan Bean<br>H: +64 9 828 2959<br>M: +64 21 917 173<br>G: <a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>
--00163628375ae338e404724995cd--
-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
|