Subject[dq] How much rock is earth?
FromStephen Martin
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 16:20:05 +1300 (NZDT)
Earth mages need to be in contact with earth to cast (specific rules below).  But how big does
a rock need to be to count as earth for the purposes or earth mages?

I think I can safely say most GMs will laugh at the earth mage who takes a sack of dirt when
they fly or sail and expect to be able to cast.
And at the other end most GMs would allow an earth mage to cast while standing on the flying
Elven city of Eidolon.
I have seen a GM allow an earth mage to cast using 30 tons of rock in the hold of a flying
ship - though there may have been extenuating (extra-planar) circumstances involved.

I'm not looking to make a definitive ruling, I'm just curious to poll opinions.
How much rock (E.g. on a sailing or flying ship) would be enough to count as 'earth'?

1 Ton, 10 Ton, 30, 50, hundreds of tons, thousands, ...?


NB For those that prefer to think of stone by volume, 1 cubic foot of stone is between 145 and
168 lbs depending on type of stone.  So 1 Ton (a short Ton = 2,000 lbs not the metric Tonne 1,000 kgs = 2,205 lbs) is about 13 cubic feet. E.g. a modest throne.
10 Tons is ~130 cubic feet.  E.g. a double bed made of solid stone or a steam roller front wheel.
30 Tons is ~390 cubic feet.  E.g. a rk 19 (39' x 10' x 1') wall of stone.
100 Tons is ~1300 cubic feet.  E.g. enough stone to make a 20' high 12' square tower with 1'
walls.
A flying castle would be 10's of thousands of tons.
Eidolon (assuming 1 mile diameter) would be almost a billion tons.


"Practitioners of the College of Earth Magics must always
be in contact with the earth to perform magic of
this College.
A practitioner of this College is considered in contact
with the earth if they are in contact with an item
which is, itself, rooted in the earth (tree, plant, foundation
of a house, etc.). They would not be in contact
with earth if they were in the air or in water where
they could not touch bottom, or if they were atop a
piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted
in the ground. An Adept in a personís arms is not in
contact with the earth."

Cheers, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromStruan Judd
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 17:37:47 +1300
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Interpolating a few extra numbers for floating islands

1 million tons =3D 13 million cubic feet =3D approx 250' radius and averagi=
ng a
little less than 70' thick.

10 million tons =3D approx 535' radius and average thickness approx 150'

100 million tons - approx 1150' radius and average thickness approx 320'

Eidolon at ~2500' radius and averaging a little less than 675' thick..


Eidolon sounds plenty. Possibly as little as 320 million tons ie. a sphere
1000' radius

TTFN, Struan


On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 16:20, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:

> Earth mages need to be in contact with earth to cast (specific rules
> below).  But how big does
> a rock need to be to count as earth for the purposes or earth mages?
>
> I think I can safely say most GMs will laugh at the earth mage who takes =
a
> sack of dirt when
> they fly or sail and expect to be able to cast.
> And at the other end most GMs would allow an earth mage to cast while
> standing on the flying
> Elven city of Eidolon.
> I have seen a GM allow an earth mage to cast using 30 tons of rock in the
> hold of a flying
> ship - though there may have been extenuating (extra-planar) circumstance=
s
> involved.
>
> I'm not looking to make a definitive ruling, I'm just curious to poll
> opinions.
> How much rock (E.g. on a sailing or flying ship) would be enough to count
> as 'earth'?
>
> 1 Ton, 10 Ton, 30, 50, hundreds of tons, thousands, ...?
>
>
> NB For those that prefer to think of stone by volume, 1 cubic foot of sto=
ne
> is between 145 and
> 168 lbs depending on type of stone.  So 1 Ton (a short Ton  2,000 lbs not
> the metric Tonne 1,000 kgs  2,205 lbs) is about 13 cubic feet. E.g. a mod=
est
> throne.
> 10 Tons is ~130 cubic feet.  E.g. a double bed made of solid stone or a
> steam roller front wheel.
> 30 Tons is ~390 cubic feet.  E.g. a rk 19 (39' x 10' x 1') wall of stone.
> 100 Tons is ~1300 cubic feet.  E.g. enough stone to make a 20' high 12'
> square tower with 1'
> walls.
> A flying castle would be 10's of thousands of tons.
> Eidolon (assuming 1 mile diameter) would be almost a billion tons.
>
>
> "Practitioners of the College of Earth Magics must always
> be in contact with the earth to perform magic of
> this College.
> A practitioner of this College is considered in contact
> with the earth if they are in contact with an item
> which is, itself, rooted in the earth (tree, plant, foundation
> of a house, etc.). They would not be in contact
> with earth if they were in the air or in water where
> they could not touch bottom, or if they were atop a
> piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted
> in the ground. An Adept in a person=92s arms is not in
> contact with the earth."
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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Interpolating a few extra numbers for floating islands<div><br></div><div>1=
 million tons =3D 13 million cubic feet =3D approx 250&#39; radius and aver=
aging a little less than 70&#39; thick.</div><div><br></div><div>10 million=
 tons =3D approx 535&#39; radius and average thickness approx 150&#39;</div=
>
<div><br></div><div>100 million tons - approx 1150&#39; radius and average =
thickness approx 320&#39;</div><div><div><br></div><div>Eidolon at ~2500&#3=
9; radius and averaging a little less than 675&#39; thick..</div><div><br>
</div><div><br></div><div>Eidolon sounds plenty. Possibly as little as 320 =
million tons ie. a sphere 1000&#39; radius</div><div><br></div><div>TTFN, S=
truan</div><div><div><br><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 10=
, 2009 at 16:20, Stephen Martin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ste=
phenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Earth mages need to be in contact with eart=
h to cast (specific rules below). =A0But how big does<br>
a rock need to be to count as earth for the purposes or earth mages?<br>
<br>
I think I can safely say most GMs will laugh at the earth mage who takes a =
sack of dirt when<br>
they fly or sail and expect to be able to cast.<br>
And at the other end most GMs would allow an earth mage to cast while stand=
ing on the flying<br>
Elven city of Eidolon.<br>
I have seen a GM allow an earth mage to cast using 30 tons of rock in the h=
old of a flying<br>
ship - though there may have been extenuating (extra-planar) circumstances =
involved.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not looking to make a definitive ruling, I&#39;m just curious to po=
ll opinions.<br>
How much rock (E.g. on a sailing or flying ship) would be enough to count a=
s &#39;earth&#39;?<br>
<br>
1 Ton, 10 Ton, 30, 50, hundreds of tons, thousands, ...?<br>
<br>
<br>
NB For those that prefer to think of stone by volume, 1 cubic foot of stone=
 is between 145 and<br>
168 lbs depending on type of stone. =A0So 1 Ton (a short Ton =A02,000 lbs n=
ot the metric Tonne 1,000 kgs =A02,205 lbs) is about 13 cubic feet. E.g. a =
modest throne.<br>
10 Tons is ~130 cubic feet. =A0E.g. a double bed made of solid stone or a s=
team roller front wheel.<br>
30 Tons is ~390 cubic feet. =A0E.g. a rk 19 (39&#39; x 10&#39; x 1&#39;) wa=
ll of stone.<br>
100 Tons is ~1300 cubic feet. =A0E.g. enough stone to make a 20&#39; high 1=
2&#39; square tower with 1&#39;<br>
walls.<br>
A flying castle would be 10&#39;s of thousands of tons.<br>
Eidolon (assuming 1 mile diameter) would be almost a billion tons.<br>
<br>
<br>
&quot;Practitioners of the College of Earth Magics must always<br>
be in contact with the earth to perform magic of<br>
this College.<br>
A practitioner of this College is considered in contact<br>
with the earth if they are in contact with an item<br>
which is, itself, rooted in the earth (tree, plant, foundation<br>
of a house, etc.). They would not be in contact<br>
with earth if they were in the air or in water where<br>
they could not touch bottom, or if they were atop a<br>
piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted<br>
in the ground. An Adept in a person=92s arms is not in<br>
contact with the earth.&quot;<br>
<br>
Cheers, Stephen.<br>
<br>
<br>
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dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>

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SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromMartin Dickson
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 17:39:06 +1300
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I'd generally start from the assumption that earth in this context meant the
whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities would not
necessarily count.

If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that's where at least one royal
garden is I think it's a safe assumption -- then it may be that the builders
made it work that way and the mass of the city is not the key.

Opinion: lots.  Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended /
surrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any "flying"
thing is out,  I'd be happier with (even very small) moons if they're
suspended in the aether rather than in air.  Islands that float on the sea
are similar, although less opposed.

Cheers,
Martin

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I&#39;d generally start from the assumption that earth in this context mean=
t the whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities would not n=
ecessarily count.<br><br>If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that&=
#39;s where at least one royal garden is I think it&#39;s a safe assumption=
 -- then it may be that the builders made it work that way and the mass of =
the city is not the key.<br>
<br>Opinion: lots.=A0 Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended / s=
urrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any &quot;flying=
&quot; thing is out,=A0 I&#39;d be happier with (even very small) moons if =
they&#39;re suspended in the aether rather than in air.=A0 Islands that flo=
at on the sea are similar, although less opposed. <br>
<br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromIan Wood
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 18:11:37 +1300
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Apart from the semi-obvious "it is magic, duh" how does an island of rock
float on water (even pumice sinks after about a week)?

 

I did start from Martin's suggestion of contact with the whole ball of
greasy cheese, and then wondered about other elements.

What volume of air would an air-mage require if underground?

Or fire for a fire mage?

Or Ice?

 

A sphere of 5 feet radius? Is that too easy?

How game breaking is it for an earth mage to be able to cast on a ship (with
suitable solid ballast)? The earth elemental may object to his summoning.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: 10 November 2009 17:39
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] How much rock is earth?

 

I'd generally start from the assumption that earth in this context meant the
whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities would not
necessarily count.

If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that's where at least one royal
garden is I think it's a safe assumption -- then it may be that the builders
made it work that way and the mass of the city is not the key.

Opinion: lots.  Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended /
surrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any "flying"
thing is out,  I'd be happier with (even very small) moons if they're
suspended in the aether rather than in air.  Islands that float on the sea
are similar, although less opposed. 

Cheers,
Martin

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Apart from the semi-obvious =
&#8220;it is
magic, duh&#8221; how does an island of rock float on water (even pumice =
sinks
after about a week)?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I did start from Martin&#8217;s =
suggestion
of contact with the whole ball of greasy cheese, and then wondered about =
other
elements.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What volume of air would an =
air-mage require
if underground?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Or fire for a fire =
mage?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Or =
Ice?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>A sphere of 5 feet radius? Is that =
too
easy?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>How game breaking is it for an =
earth mage
to be able to cast on a ship (with suitable solid ballast)? The earth =
elemental
may object to his summoning&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

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</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 10 November 2009 =
17:39<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] How =
much rock is
earth?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I'd generally start from the assumption that earth in this =
context
meant the whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities =
would not
necessarily count.<br>
<br>
If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that's where at least one =
royal
garden is I think it's a safe assumption -- then it may be that the =
builders
made it work that way and the mass of the city is not the key.<br>
<br>
Opinion: lots.&nbsp; Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended /
surrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any
&quot;flying&quot; thing is out,&nbsp; I'd be happier with (even very =
small)
moons if they're suspended in the aether rather than in air.&nbsp; =
Islands that
float on the sea are similar, although less opposed. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<br>
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.57/2492 - Release Date: =
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SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromR Mansfield
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 18:16:50 +1300
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I'm kind of with Martin on this, amongst other points the rule is "must be
in contact with the earth" not in contact with earth. 

 

But if the consensus is a volume then we have a precedent with Water, where
we chose to go with 'a small pond's worth' counting as a body of water.  I
certainly wouldn't want a volume smaller.

 

Regards

Rosemary 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Tuesday, 10 November 2009 5:39 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] How much rock is earth?

 

I'd generally start from the assumption that earth in this context meant the
whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities would not
necessarily count.

If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that's where at least one royal
garden is I think it's a safe assumption -- then it may be that the builders
made it work that way and the mass of the city is not the key.

Opinion: lots.  Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended /
surrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any "flying"
thing is out,  I'd be happier with (even very small) moons if they're
suspended in the aether rather than in air.  Islands that float on the sea
are similar, although less opposed. 

Cheers,
Martin


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m kind of with Martin on =
this, amongst
other points the rule is &#8220;must be in contact with <u>the</u> =
earth&#8221;
not in contact with earth. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But if the consensus is a volume =
then we
have a precedent with Water, where we chose to go with &#8216;a small =
pond&#8217;s
worth&#8217; counting as a body of water.&nbsp; I certainly =
wouldn&#8217;t want a volume
smaller.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rosemary =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, 10 =
November 2009
5:39 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] How =
much rock is
earth?</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>I'd generally start from the assumption that earth in this =
context
meant the whole ball of wax... errr... dirt, and that flying cities =
would not
necessarily count.<br>
<br>
If earth magics work on Eidolon -- and given that's where at least one =
royal
garden is I think it's a safe assumption -- then it may be that the =
builders
made it work that way and the mass of the city is not the key.<br>
<br>
Opinion: lots.&nbsp; Particularly if the earth is notionally suspended /
surrounded by its opposite element of Air -- so pretty much any
&quot;flying&quot; thing is out,&nbsp; I'd be happier with (even very =
small)
moons if they're suspended in the aether rather than in air.&nbsp; =
Islands that
float on the sea are similar, although less opposed. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromMichael Scott
DateTue, 10 Nov 2009 20:28:29 +1300
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> A practitioner of this College is considered in contact
> with the earth if they are in contact with an item
> which is=2C itself=2C rooted in the earth (tree=2C plant=2C foundation
> of a house=2C etc.). They would not be in contact
> with earth if they were in the air or in water where
> they could not touch bottom=2C or if they were atop a
> piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted
> in the ground.

=20

Sounds to me that if the adept is in contact with an item (crystal/elementa=
l/city) that is some how connected to the earth ( the gaia spirit perhaps?)=
 and they can use this conection to draw mana. Eidalon having such a connec=
tion makes sense i would posit that some creatures like dryads and ents hav=
e similer connections that some mage or shaper has some how managed to repl=
icate this to lesser degrees would not surprise me.

=20

Moons and such I wold be iffy about unless the contained some life or were =
born of the world.

=20

TTFN
 		 	   		 =20
_________________________________________________________________
New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
http://windows.microsoft.com/shop=

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<BR>&gt=3B A practitioner of this College is considered in contact<BR>&gt=
=3B with the earth if they are in contact with an item<BR>&gt=3B which is=
=2C itself=2C rooted in the earth (tree=2C plant=2C foundation<BR>&gt=3B of=
 a house=2C etc.). They would not be in contact<BR>&gt=3B with earth if the=
y were in the air or in water where<BR>&gt=3B they could not touch bottom=
=2C or if they were atop a<BR>&gt=3B piece of furniture or an animal as the=
se are not rooted<BR>&gt=3B in the ground.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Sounds to me that if the adept is in contact with an item (crystal/elementa=
l/city) that is some how connected to the earth ( the gaia spirit perhaps?)=
 and they can use this conection to draw mana. Eidalon having such a connec=
tion makes sense i would posit that some creatures like dryads and ents hav=
e similer connections that some mage or shaper has some how managed to repl=
icate this to lesser degrees would not surprise me.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Moons and such I wold be iffy about unless the contained some life or were =
born of the world.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
TTFN<BR> 		 	   		  <br /><hr />New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. <=
a href=3D'http://windows.microsoft.com/shop' target=3D'_new'>Learn more.</a=
></body>
</html>=

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