SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromHamish Brown
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 08:54:27 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01CA62AC.93421940
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

What about a pocket full of earth?

 

We don't want to scare the poor little earth mages

 

H

 

Hamish Brown

 

57 Wharf Rd

Te Atatu Peninsular

Auckland

021 275 4757

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Michael Scott
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:28 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] How much rock is earth?

 


> A practitioner of this College is considered in contact
> with the earth if they are in contact with an item
> which is, itself, rooted in the earth (tree, plant, foundation
> of a house, etc.). They would not be in contact
> with earth if they were in the air or in water where
> they could not touch bottom, or if they were atop a
> piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted
> in the ground.
 
Sounds to me that if the adept is in contact with an item
(crystal/elemental/city) that is some how connected to the earth ( the gaia
spirit perhaps?) and they can use this conection to draw mana. Eidalon
having such a connection makes sense i would posit that some creatures like
dryads and ents have similer connections that some mage or shaper has some
how managed to replicate this to lesser degrees would not surprise me.
 
Moons and such I wold be iffy about unless the contained some life or were
born of the world.
 
TTFN

  _____  

New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
<http://windows.microsoft.com/shop> 


------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01CA62AC.93421940
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
 namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"City"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"place"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"Street"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"address"/>
<o:SmartTagType =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"
 name=3D"PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:Tahoma;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:"Palatino Linotype";
	panose-1:2 4 5 2 5 5 5 3 3 4;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Verdana;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
p
	{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0in;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0in;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle18
	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
	font-family:Arial;
	color:navy;}
@page Section1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>What about a pocket full of =
earth?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We don&#8217;t want to scare the =
poor
little earth mages<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>H<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3D"Palatino Linotype"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype";
 color:navy'>Hamish</span></font></st1:PersonName><font color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Palatino Linotype"><span style=3D'font-family:"Palatino =
Linotype";
color:navy'> Brown</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:Street w:st=3D"on"><st1:address =
w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2
  color=3Dnavy face=3D"Palatino Linotype"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
  "Palatino Linotype";color:navy'>57 Wharf =
Rd</span></font></st1:address></st1:Street><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Palatino =
Linotype"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino Linotype";color:navy'>Te =
Atatu
Peninsular</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font =
size=3D2
  color=3Dnavy face=3D"Palatino Linotype"><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
  "Palatino =
Linotype";color:navy'>Auckland</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Palatino =
Linotype"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Palatino =
Linotype";color:navy'>021 275
4757</span></font><font color=3Dnavy><span =
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>=


</div>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Michael Scott<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November =
10, 2009
8:28 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] How =
much rock is
earth?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><br>
&gt; A practitioner of this College is considered in contact<br>
&gt; with the earth if they are in contact with an item<br>
&gt; which is, itself, rooted in the earth (tree, plant, foundation<br>
&gt; of a house, etc.). They would not be in contact<br>
&gt; with earth if they were in the air or in water where<br>
&gt; they could not touch bottom, or if they were atop a<br>
&gt; piece of furniture or an animal as these are not rooted<br>
&gt; in the ground.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Sounds to me that if the adept is in contact with an item
(crystal/elemental/city) that is some how connected to the earth ( the =
gaia
spirit perhaps?) and they can use this conection to draw mana. Eidalon =
having
such a connection makes sense i would posit that some creatures like =
dryads and
ents have similer connections that some mage or shaper has some how =
managed to
replicate this to lesser degrees would not surprise me.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Moons and such I wold be iffy about unless the contained some life or =
were born
of the world.<br>
&nbsp;<br>
TTFN<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D2
face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana'>New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. <a
href=3D"http://windows.microsoft.com/shop" target=3D"_new">Learn =
more.</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_00B1_01CA62AC.93421940--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromStephen Martin
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 12:22:48 +1300 (NZDT)
Good points Ian.  I just checked the other Elemental colleges about when they cannot cast at all.

Air: Not vacuum nor underwater.  Must be in contact with air.
Celestial: Element must be present - only 0%/100% Light/Dark prevents casting.
Fire: Not vacuum nor underwater.  Must be possible for fire to exist.
Ice: No restriction
Water: Not Vacuum nor Totally Arid places.  Must be in contact with their element.

Ice is an anomaly with no restriction.  Fire requires the potential to exist.  But the others
are fairly consistent they require you element to be present and/or in contact.


In theory all a Fire or Air Mage needs to get around their restriction is a bubble of air, of
course you would expect that their effects would also be constrained to that bubble of air.
Similar for water mages, they just need to make sure they always carry a bucket or maybe even
a flask of water when they go to the desert. BC% will suck and your targets/effects would be
limited but it would be enough to cast.

Is there a reason for Earth to be more restricted than the other elemental colleges?

Could we apply a similar guideline to all of them for how much of your element you need when
it is not naturally present?
E.g. You need a volume of your element greater than your own volume (good for Hobbits, sucks
for giants and dragons).  Or a hex (5' diameter) of your element to be more egalitarian.

Or perhaps the element needs to be bound to allow you to cast in an unfriendly environment -
makes the various expensive binding elements rituals specifically useful.

And why is Ice unrestricted?  I would expect them to have the same limit as Water - not vacuum
nor totally arid.

Cheers, Stephen.

On Tue, November 10, 2009 6:11 pm, Ian Wood wrote:
>
> I did start from Martin's suggestion of contact with the whole ball of
> greasy cheese, and then wondered about other elements.
>
> What volume of air would an air-mage require if underground?
>
> Or fire for a fire mage?
>
> Or Ice?
>
> A sphere of 5 feet radius? Is that too easy?
>
> How game breaking is it for an earth mage to be able to cast on a ship (with
> suitable solid ballast)? The earth elemental may object to his summoning.
>
> Ian


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 12:34:46 +1300
"The Earth" refered to in the spell description is the Element of Earth, not 
the whole plane.

Now as the dirt on ones boots does not allow a mounted earth mage to cast, 
and a bath tub does not help water mages, is obvious small amounts of an 
element don't count.
That contact with very large amounts as in most of the element on the whole 
plane is not required, is demonstrated by Air mages being able (with 
penalities) to cast in an inclosed spaces and water mages being able to use 
a pond.
For earth mages Floating Islands and Cities in the air have been shown to be 
enough elemental earth, as has on an occasion a hold full.

The question asked isn't can you cast from a piece of earth floating on the 
sea or in the air,  its how small an amount of the element is enough for an 
earth mage. Is filling the hold of a small ship enough or is it the will of 
the Gods that it requires more (or less)?

For me a clue to the answer to this is in that a chair which would be a 
possession just like the earth mages boots doesn't count as contact where as 
a tree or a house does.
A house has a large foundation foot print, a tree big enough to climb may 
only have a foot thick trunk but its roots cover the whole area under its 
branches (ei. there is as much below ground as above). The tree and the 
house are themselves in contact with large amounts of earth where as the 
chair (or a horse) only has contact with the tiny areas at the ends of its 
legs.

Thus the amount of earth a mage requires to cast should be enough to grow a 
large tree in or cover an area big enough to build a house with foundations 
on.

The 30 ton hold full sounds a little light to me, I'd go with 45 tons that 
would allow a reasonable small house foundation or give you a good sized 
ball of dirt for a tree to root in. (aprox a 10ft sq by 5ft deep root ball 
or a 20x20x1ft slab of stone)

Maybe that 30 ton hold full was extra elementally rock.

Helen


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromHelen Saggers
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 12:54:53 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CA62CE.29D23EF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>And why is Ice unrestricted?  I would expect them to have the same =
limit as Water - not vacuum
>nor totally arid.

Because when the Ice college was writened people for got to think about =
what if you are in a vacum or a place where Ice can't form.=20
But people don't forget Antartica is an arid desert and thats just prime =
ice mage teritory.
Many deserts are cold, and one of the driest places on earth is famous =
for its mists...which if you add cold is all you need for snow.

Helen
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CA62CE.29D23EF0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16939" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;And why is Ice unrestricted?&nbsp; =
I would=20
expect them to have the same limit as Water - not vacuum<BR>&gt;nor =
totally=20
arid.<BR><BR>Because </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>when the Ice =
college was=20
writened people for got to think about what if you are in a vacum or a =
place=20
where Ice can't form. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>But people don't forget =
<STRONG>Antartica is an=20
arid desert</STRONG> and thats just prime ice mage =
teritory.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Many deserts are cold, and&nbsp;one of =
the driest=20
places on earth&nbsp;is famous for its&nbsp;mists...which if you add =
cold is all=20
you need for snow.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Helen</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01CA62CE.29D23EF0--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromAndrew Withy
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 13:20:34 +1300
I like the intent that I read into the Water college description of a
significant mass of an element. Water College says:

For the purpose of these modifiers "water" refers to a body of water such as
a sea, lake, ocean, pond, river, stream, spring or other feature containing
large amounts of water (1000 gallons or more) or existing as part of a
larger system or network of waterways. A barrel, bucket, or tun of water
does not qualify as a body of water.

1000 gallons is 10,000 pounds ~ 5 tons. If 5 tons was the requirement for
all elements, this would be:
* Rock ~ 60-75 cubic feet = 4 foot cube
* Water 160 cubic feet = 5.4 foot cube (1000 gallons)
* Ice ~ 170 cubic feet = 5.5 foot cube
* Air ~ 160,000 cubic feet = 54 foot cube
* Light/Dark = ?! <how heavy is light?>

My opinion is that due to their connection to nature, the amount of an
element required in an artificial environment (say a swimming pool on a
flying ship) might be quite a lot higher than in a natural environment.
Something similar is indicated with the Air mages -15 for being totally
enclosed. A bound element should not count towards the total volume/mass.

While we aren't talking about rule specifics, I'd tend towards something
like: Earth Mages can cast with a -15% while in contact with at least five
tons of unhewn rock, or at no penalty when in contact with the earth, or
something rooted in the earth. Then high-level Earth Mages who can't cast
while flying (and there are precious few of those) could probably arrange to
carry a five ton rock, and organised bunny earth mages can backfire while on
long sea voyages - "Throw the prisoner into the bilges so I can DA them".

Andrew


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromIan Wood
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 13:54:08 +1300
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0026_01CA62D6.70AD2800
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As I understand it, the sustained creation of ice or snow requires the
presence of water vapour and more cold than warmth (ie the net balance is
below zero celcius for normal atmospheric pressures). 

 

Throwing all that aside for the purposes of the theory of magic, and
ignoring historical evidence, I presume we are talking about the theoretical
relationship between the ability to draw mana for elemental colleges and
contact with the mundane expression of that element. (by mundane I mean not
the elemental plane of the element.)

 

I see some options on how to interpret the relationship:

1. the ability to cast elemental magic is affected by contact or proximity
of the element.

2. contact or proximity of an element affects the ability to cast elemental
magic.

3. contact with or proximity to an pseudo-effect that is the consequence of
magic or not sustainable in the environment removes the negative
consequences of the lack of proper contact or proximity to the element
(sigh, EG magical light for celestials).

 

So for me, 20 cubic feet of rock in the hold of a ship is a pseudo-effect
that has been created (putting the rock in a container) that is not
sustainable (take the container away and the rock sinks) and would allow
casting earth magics at penalties.

Interestingly, ship strength stops the ship from burning and hence would
disallow fire magic to be cast. Or at least add penalties to casting.

 

For a water mage, taking 100 lb of water from a bag of holding and placing
in a bath would do very little (one cu foot weighs 60 lb) to his cast
chances in a dessert.

However, a knowledgeable ice mage will know it is possible to create ice in
very shallow pools at sunrise and sunset, and so could cast magic at least
twice a day at a suitable point in a desert.

 

Where is all this going?

I think we should consider standardizing the consequence of varying degrees
of contact with the proper expression of an element gives to the ability to
cast that college. I think a starting point would be:

1. Full contact with the planar-expression of the element allows full
casting.

2. Contact or proximity with a naturally occurring amount of the element
that is (effectively) isolated from the planar expression allows casting
with penalties (EG a cavern with air, a naturally floating island).

3. Being in an area where there is the potential for the element to exist
allows casting with penalties (at sea where there are undersea volcanoes for
both fire and earth colleges :-)).

4. contact or proximity with an unnaturally occurring amount of the element
may at best negate the negative penalties for #2 and #3.

5. contact or proximity with an unnaturally occurring amount of the element
where it cannot naturally exist may at best allow casting at penalties.

 

Dunno, seems a lot of words for a quick decision by a GM, but then some
guidelines may help the player get a more uniform interpretation across
games.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: 11 November 2009 12:55
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] How much rock is earth?

 

>And why is Ice unrestricted?  I would expect them to have the same limit as
Water - not vacuum
>nor totally arid.

Because when the Ice college was writened people for got to think about what
if you are in a vacum or a place where Ice can't form. 

But people don't forget Antartica is an arid desert and thats just prime ice
mage teritory.

Many deserts are cold, and one of the driest places on earth is famous for
its mists...which if you add cold is all you need for snow.

 

Helen

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2494 - Release Date: 11/10/09
07:38:00



------=_NextPart_000_0026_01CA62D6.70AD2800
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:st1=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]--><o:SmartTagType
 namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"/>
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
</style>
<![endif]-->
<style>
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:Wingdings;
	panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Tahoma;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0cm;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle18
	{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
	font-family:Arial;
	color:navy;}
@page Section1
	{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
	margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As I understand it, the sustained =
creation
of ice or snow requires the presence of water vapour and more cold than =
warmth
(ie the net balance is below zero celcius for normal atmospheric =
pressures). <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Throwing all that aside for the =
purposes
of the theory of magic, and ignoring historical evidence, I presume we =
are
talking about the theoretical relationship between the ability to draw =
mana for
elemental colleges and contact with the mundane expression of that =
element. (by
mundane I mean not the elemental plane of the =
element.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I see some options on how to =
interpret the
relationship:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. the ability to cast elemental =
magic is
affected by contact or proximity of the =
element.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. contact or proximity of an =
element
affects the ability to cast elemental =
magic.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. contact with or proximity to an =
pseudo-effect
that is the consequence of magic or not sustainable in the environment =
removes
the negative consequences of the lack of proper contact or proximity to =
the
element (sigh, EG magical light for =
celestials).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>So for me, 20 cubic feet of rock in =
the
hold of a ship is a pseudo-effect that has been created (putting the =
rock in a
container) that is not sustainable (take the container away and the rock =
sinks)
and would allow casting earth magics at =
penalties.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Interestingly, ship strength stops =
the
ship from burning and hence would disallow fire magic to be cast. Or at =
least add
penalties to casting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>For a water mage, taking 100 lb of =
water
from a bag of holding and placing in a bath would do very little (one cu =
foot
weighs 60 lb) to his cast chances in a =
dessert.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>However, a knowledgeable ice mage =
will
know it is possible to create ice in very shallow pools at sunrise and =
sunset,
and so could cast magic at least twice a day at a suitable point in a =
desert.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Where is all this =
going?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we should consider =
standardizing the
consequence of varying degrees of contact with the proper expression of =
an
element gives to the ability to cast that college. I think a starting =
point
would be:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. Full contact with the =
planar-expression
of the element allows full casting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. Contact or proximity with a =
naturally occurring
amount of the element that is (effectively) isolated from the planar =
expression
allows casting with penalties (EG a cavern with air, a naturally =
floating
island).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. Being in an area where there is =
the
potential for the element to exist allows casting with penalties (at sea =
where
there are undersea volcanoes for both fire and earth colleges =
</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>).<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4. contact or proximity with an
unnaturally occurring amount of the element may at best negate the =
negative
penalties for #2 and #3.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>5. contact or proximity with an
unnaturally occurring amount of the element where it cannot naturally =
exist may
at best allow casting at penalties.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dunno, seems a lot of words for a =
quick
decision by a GM, but then some guidelines may help the player get a =
more
uniform interpretation across games.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Helen
Saggers<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 11 November 2009 =
12:55<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] How =
much rock is
earth?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&gt;And why is Ice unrestricted?&nbsp; I would expect =
them
to have the same limit as Water - not vacuum<br>
&gt;nor totally arid.<br>
<br>
Because when the Ice college was writened people for got to think about =
what if
you are in a vacum or a place where Ice can't form. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>But people don't forget <strong><b><font =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-family:Arial'>Antartica is an arid =
desert</span></font></b></strong>
and thats just prime ice mage teritory.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Many deserts are cold, and&nbsp;one of the driest =
places on
earth&nbsp;is famous for its&nbsp;mists...which if you add cold is all =
you need
for snow.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Helen</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

</body>

</html>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">No virus found in this incoming =
message.<BR>
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<BR>
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2494 - Release Date: =
11/10/09 07:38:00<BR>
</FONT></P>
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01CA62D6.70AD2800--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] How much rock is earth?
FromIan Wood
DateWed, 11 Nov 2009 14:06:42 +1300
Yup, what Andrew wrote,

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Andrew Withy
Sent: 11 November 2009 13:21
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] How much rock is earth?

I like the intent that I read into the Water college description of a
significant mass of an element. Water College says:

For the purpose of these modifiers "water" refers to a body of water such as
a sea, lake, ocean, pond, river, stream, spring or other feature containing
large amounts of water (1000 gallons or more) or existing as part of a
larger system or network of waterways. A barrel, bucket, or tun of water
does not qualify as a body of water.

1000 gallons is 10,000 pounds ~ 5 tons. If 5 tons was the requirement for
all elements, this would be:
* Rock ~ 60-75 cubic feet = 4 foot cube
* Water 160 cubic feet = 5.4 foot cube (1000 gallons)
* Ice ~ 170 cubic feet = 5.5 foot cube
* Air ~ 160,000 cubic feet = 54 foot cube
* Light/Dark = ?! <how heavy is light?>

My opinion is that due to their connection to nature, the amount of an
element required in an artificial environment (say a swimming pool on a
flying ship) might be quite a lot higher than in a natural environment.
Something similar is indicated with the Air mages -15 for being totally
enclosed. A bound element should not count towards the total volume/mass.

While we aren't talking about rule specifics, I'd tend towards something
like: Earth Mages can cast with a -15% while in contact with at least five
tons of unhewn rock, or at no penalty when in contact with the earth, or
something rooted in the earth. Then high-level Earth Mages who can't cast
while flying (and there are precious few of those) could probably arrange to
carry a five ton rock, and organised bunny earth mages can backfire while on
long sea voyages - "Throw the prisoner into the bilges so I can DA them".

Andrew


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.58/2494 - Release Date: 11/10/09
07:38:00


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --