I disagree Ian.
It was suggested that Artisan should not require masterworks, it was not agreed.

5) as stated by Keith is correct.

IMO...
Artisan is the most appropriate and easiest to do master works for.
Players should be encouraged to come up with master works for their artisan characters.
But also as stated the requirements are less rigorous.

A scuplture or painting in a public place, leading excavation of a new shaft in a mine, head
chef on a banquet, etc.

Cheers, Stephen.

On Fri, March 19, 2010 11:53 pm, Ian Wood wrote:
> My recollection for two of the decisions are slightly different from that
> recorded below.
>
> I recall the following:
>
> 5) Artisan and Adventuring skills do NOT require master works to reach ranks
> 8, 9 and 10.
>
>
> From: dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]
> On Behalf Of Keith Smith
> Sent: 19 March 2010 23:14
>
> 5) The following are an exception to the 'Masterwork approved by GM rule':
> Adventuring & Languages. Artisan still has the requirement but it is less
> rigorous.


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Test

On 20 March 2010 00:02, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's the way I remember it, too
>
> On 19 March 2010 23:53, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>>  My recollection for two of the decisions are slightly different from
>> that recorded below.
>>
>>
>>
>> I recall the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> 5) Artisan and Adventuring skills do NOT require master works to reach
>> ranks 8, 9 and 10.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 15) Add to definitions in Combat s.3.1:
>>
>>  a. Prepare spell as a magical Pass Action
>>
>>  b. Cast (a spell) is both a Fire Action and a Magical Action
>>
>>  c. Active Resistance as a magical Pass Action
>>
>>  d. Concentrate (Actively) as a magical Pass Action
>>
>>  e. Active Talents require a Pass Action to utilize (passive Talents are
>> always in effect) (s7.2 How magic works, paragraph 2, sentence 6)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Ian
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:
>> dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf Of *Keith Smith
>> *Sent:* 19 March 2010 23:14
>> *To:* dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz
>> *Subject:* [dq-announce] Guild Meeting Minutes - Autumn 810 WK
>>
>>
>>
>> *Seagate Adventurer=92s Guild
>> *Guild meeting Minutes
>>
>> 1st Fruit 810 WK
>>
>>
>> *Gods Meeting Minutes*
>>
>> 1) Is Evil Eye a Curse? =96 Yes
>> 2) Is Forbiddance entities only? Unresolved. A proposal is to be raised
>> 3) Courtier/Troubadour =96 Wording is to be changed to allow specialisat=
ion
>> when gaining a rank
>> 4) Philosopher =96 Confirm that existing rule is to stand regarding the
>> acquisition of extra area below Rank 10.
>> 5) The following are an exception to the =91Masterwork approved by GM ru=
le=92:
>> Adventuring & Languages. Artisan still has the requirement but it is les=
s
>> rigorous.
>> 6) Alchemist =96 add times for making antidotes/medicines
>> 7) Healer =96 Make suggested changes to skin graft etc.
>> 8) Spy =96 Spoken language bonuses stack
>> 9) A cost for lockpicks is to be added
>> 10) Clothing does not count as encumberance
>> 11) The range for Extinguish Fire is a radius
>> 12) Fireproofing =96 change Hypothermia to Heat Stroke
>> 13) Disarming needs looking at
>> 14) Troubadour =96 add composition as an ability
>> 15) Combat =96 Add prepare and cast to definitions. Cast should be liste=
d as
>> a fire action, Magic Resistance is a magical pass action. A magic in com=
bat
>> section is to be added.
>>
>> A list is to be made of anything else to be looked at for proposals.
>> The aim is to get the new rulebook out in June.
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2754 - Release Date: 03/19/10
>> 08:33:00
>>
>
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">Test<br></font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 March 2010 00:02, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Tha=
t&#39;s the way I remember it, too<br></font>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 19 March 2010 23:53, Ian Wood <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">dawnhaven@=
xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My recollection=
 for two of the decisions are slightly different from that recorded below.<=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I recall the fo=
llowing:</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5) Artisan and =
Adventuring skills do NOT require master works to reach ranks 8, 9 and 10.<=
/span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">15) Add to defi=
nitions in Combat s.3.1:</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0a. Prepare s=
pell as a magical Pass Action</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0b. Cast (a s=
pell) is both a Fire Action and a Magical Action</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0c. Active Re=
sistance as a magical Pass Action</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0d. Concentra=
te (Actively) as a magical Pass Action</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0e. Active Ta=
lents require a Pass Action to utilize (passive Talents are always in effec=
t) (s7.2 How magic works, paragraph 2, sentence 6)</span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ian</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><fon=
t size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"F=
ONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></font>=
</b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D=
"_blank">dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-an=
nounce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz=
</a>] <b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Keith Sm=
ith<br>
<b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> 19 March 2010 23:14<b=
r><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-=
announce@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-announce@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b=
><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [dq-announce] Guild =
Meeting Minutes - Autumn 810 WK</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span s=
tyle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Seagate Adventurer=92s Guild<br=
></span></font></b>Guild meeting Minutes</p>
<p style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><font =
size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1<sup>s=
t</sup> Fruit 810 WK</span></font></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<h1><b><font size=3D"6" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
24pt">Gods Meeting Minutes</span></font></b></h1>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">1) Is Evil Eye a Curse=
? =96 Yes<br>2) Is Forbiddance entities only? Unresolved. A proposal is to =
be raised<br>
3) Courtier/Troubadour =96 Wording is to be changed to allow specialisation=
 when gaining a rank<br>4) Philosopher =96 Confirm that existing rule is to=
 stand regarding the acquisition of extra area below Rank 10.<br>5) The fol=
lowing are an exception to the =91Masterwork approved by GM rule=92: Advent=
uring &amp; Languages. Artisan still has the requirement but it is less rig=
orous.<br>
6) Alchemist =96 add times for making antidotes/medicines<br>7) Healer =96 =
Make suggested changes to skin graft etc.<br>8) Spy =96 Spoken language bon=
uses stack<br>9) A cost for lockpicks is to be added<br>10) Clothing does n=
ot count as encumberance<br>
11) The range for Extinguish Fire is a radius<br>12) Fireproofing =96 chang=
e Hypothermia to Heat Stroke<br>13) Disarming needs looking at<br>14) Troub=
adour =96 add composition as an ability<br>15) Combat =96 Add prepare and c=
ast to definitions. Cast should be listed as a fire action, Magic Resistanc=
e is a magical pass action. A magic in combat section is to be added.<br>
=A0<br>A list is to be made of anything else to be looked at for proposals.=
<br>The aim is to get the new rulebook out in June.<br>=A0</span></font></p=
></div></div></div>
<p><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">No virus found in this incoming message.=
<br>Checked by AVG - <a href=3D"http://www.avg.com/" target=3D"_blank">www.=
avg.com</a><br>Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2754 - Release Da=
te: 03/19/10 08:33:00<br>
</font></p></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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My opinion is this:
The reason for the rule on masterwork ranks for Skills is to avoid
situations where a player has achieved Rank 9 in Assassin without ever
having killed anyone. I find the idea of a Pacifistic Assassin difficult to
imagine. We do not need to model the world in every aspect, we should only
be focused on those things that have a direct impact on game playability.
Nor is it necessary for the rules to be apply consistently to every game
property.
 Artisan skills were added to the game to allow players to identify the
particular trade or profession that they wanted their character to have.
They have little impact on the game. If they do, they need to be a Skill. If
a player wishes to mark their progression through an artisan skill of some
kind, and they choose to engage in a masterwork, I cheer them on.
However, if they simply want to get better at something which in general is
an exercise in role-playing...well. I mean, really, who could care less? The
game is not going to suddenly break because we have three dozen Rank 10
carpenters lounging around the Guild, eyeing the furniture avariciously.
I am imagining what will happen if someone asks me if they can become a Rank
8 milliner. I bet my answer will be 'Yes', just to make them go away.
By my recollection there was dissent when the notion was raised. I believe
Ian is correct.

On 20 March 2010 14:40, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:

> I disagree Ian.
> It was suggested that Artisan should not require masterworks, it was not
> agreed.
>
> 5) as stated by Keith is correct.
>
> IMO...
> Artisan is the most appropriate and easiest to do master works for.
> Players should be encouraged to come up with master works for their artisan
> characters.
> But also as stated the requirements are less rigorous.
>
> A scuplture or painting in a public place, leading excavation of a new
> shaft in a mine, head
> chef on a banquet, etc.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> On Fri, March 19, 2010 11:53 pm, Ian Wood wrote:
> > My recollection for two of the decisions are slightly different from that
> > recorded below.
> >
> > I recall the following:
> >
> > 5) Artisan and Adventuring skills do NOT require master works to reach
> ranks
> > 8, 9 and 10.
> >
> >
> > From: dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:
> dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz]
> > On Behalf Of Keith Smith
> > Sent: 19 March 2010 23:14
> >
> > 5) The following are an exception to the 'Masterwork approved by GM
> rule':
> > Adventuring & Languages. Artisan still has the requirement but it is less
> > rigorous.
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">My opinion is this:</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">The reason for the rule on masterwork ran=
ks for Skills is to avoid situations where a player has achieved Rank 9 in =
Assassin without ever having=A0killed anyone. I find the idea of a Pacifist=
ic Assassin difficult to imagine. </font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">We do=
 not need to model the world in every aspect, we should only be focused on =
those things that have a direct impact on game playability. Nor is it neces=
sary for the rules to be apply consistently to every game property. </font>=
</div>

<div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Artisan skills were added to the game to =
allow players to identify the particular trade or profession that they want=
ed their character to have. They have little impact on the game. If they do=
, they need to be a Skill. If a player wishes to mark their progression thr=
ough an artisan skill of some kind, and they choose to engage in a masterwo=
rk, I cheer them on. </font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">However, if they simply want to get bette=
r at something which in general is an exercise in role-playing...well. I me=
an, really, who could care less? The game is not going to suddenly break be=
cause we have three dozen Rank 10 carpenters lounging around the Guild, eye=
ing the furniture avariciously.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">I am imagining what will happen if someone asks=
 me if they can become a Rank 8 milliner. I bet my answer will be &#39;Yes&=
#39;, just to make them go away.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">By my recollection there was dissent when=
 the notion was raised. I believe Ian is correct.</font></div>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>On 20 March 2010 14:40, Stephen Martin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
</div></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">I disagree Ian.<br>It was sugges=
ted that Artisan should not require masterworks, it was not agreed.<br><br>
5) as stated by Keith is correct.<br><br>IMO...<br>Artisan is the most appr=
opriate and easiest to do master works for.<br>Players should be encouraged=
 to come up with master works for their artisan characters.<br>But also as =
stated the requirements are less rigorous.<br>
<br>A scuplture or painting in a public place, leading excavation of a new =
shaft in a mine, head<br>chef on a banquet, etc.<br><br>Cheers, Stephen.<br=
>
<div class=3D"im"><br>On Fri, March 19, 2010 11:53 pm, Ian Wood wrote:<br>&=
gt; My recollection for two of the decisions are slightly different from th=
at<br>&gt; recorded below.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I recall the following:<br>&gt;<=
br>
&gt; 5) Artisan and Adventuring skills do NOT require master works to reach=
 ranks<br>&gt; 8, 9 and 10.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br></div>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.=
nz">dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-announc=
e-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-announce-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>]<br>&gt; On Behalf=
 Of Keith Smith<br>
&gt; Sent: 19 March 2010 23:14<br>&gt;<br></div>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; 5) The following are an exception to the &#39;Master=
work approved by GM rule&#39;:<br>&gt; Adventuring &amp; Languages. Artisan=
 still has the requirement but it is less<br>&gt; rigorous.<br><br><br></di=
v>
-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">=
dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></blockquote></div><br>

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