Subject[dq] Mike Haycock
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 28 May 2010 09:57:50 +1200
Does anyone have a current email address for Mike?

Thanks, Stephen.


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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromMartin Dickson
DateFri, 28 May 2010 16:17:15 +1200
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On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:

>
> These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but
> our current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day,
> a number has to be picked.
>
>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this...

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin

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<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggin=
s <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@ya=
hoo.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font: inherit;" valign=3D"top"><br>These are rather arbitrary numbers,=
 not based on weight or anything, but our current system isn&#39;t based on=
 weight either, and at the end of the day, a number has to be picked.<br>
<br></td></tr></tbody></table></blockquote></div><br>Arbitrary they may be,=
 but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard, lets not worry about =
metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of the effect granted?<b=
r>
<br>Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilv=
ering armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).=A0 What =
is the bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br><br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br><br>Open question to GMs, what value wo=
uld you place on:<br><br>Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>(effective Armourer R=
ank 0)<br>[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>Shaped to sparkle prettily=
 in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br><br>Guild Valuation: ???<br><br>I&#39=
;m guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested redu=
ced cost of 51,200sp.<br><br>3 or 4k?<br><br>Silvering and True-Silvering a=
re however commodity -- they&#39;re something Players can just decide to do=
 -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all magical-goodies... GMs.=
 :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br><br>5k?=A0 (and maybe 2k for silv=
ering?)<br><br>These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the val=
ue of the effect granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in=
 shaped armour.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br>Martin<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>

--0016363b8eb0400c5004879fc8fe--


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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromStephen Martin
DateFri, 28 May 2010 16:38:54 +1200
These values were deliberately set high (possibly too high) to protect the non-mage monopoly
on higher AP.  A supposed benefit in our campaign for non-mages is that they can have higher
AP than mages.

In my experience, well made cold iron plate is so expensive that by the time you can afford it
you don't want it anymore.

Cheers, Stephen.

On Fri, May 28, 2010 4:17 pm, Martin Dickson wrote:
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
>
>>
>> These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but
>> our current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day,
>> a number has to be picked.
>>
>>
> Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
> lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
> the effect granted?
>
> Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
> armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
> bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?
>
> Or, to look at this another way:
>
> Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:
>
> Suit of Magical Chainmail
> (effective Armourer Rank 0)
> [Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
> Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
> (and being shaped, allow casting).
>
> Guild Valuation: ???
>
> I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
> reduced cost of 51,200sp.
>
> 3 or 4k?
>
> Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
> Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
> all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
> So we might want a premium on this...
>
> 5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)
>
> These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
> granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>


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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromMartin Dickson
DateFri, 28 May 2010 16:49:50 +1200
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On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:

> These values were deliberately set high (possibly too high) to protect the
> non-mage monopoly
> on higher AP.  A supposed benefit in our campaign for non-mages is that
> they can have higher
> AP than mages.
>

And does it pan out in practice?

Or does shaped armour undermine it to destruction?

In my experience, well made cold iron plate is so expensive that by the time
> you can afford it
> you don't want it anymore.
>

And any mage who desires to wear plate will find magical plate well before
they can afford true-silvered.

(And the magical plate will have other hoopy benefits).

IMHO, it's a broken mechanism.

Playing devil's advocate: if it was thrown away altogether (i.e. no such
thing as silvered, etc armour -- other than as fancy frippery that nobs wear
of no particular benefit) how many people would care?

Would the number of people and amount they care weight favorably in the
cost-benefit analysis of retaining it?

:)

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Stephen Mar=
tin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@ak=
lnz.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padd=
ing-left: 1ex;">
These values were deliberately set high (possibly too high) to protect the =
non-mage monopoly<br>
on higher AP. =A0A supposed benefit in our campaign for non-mages is that t=
hey can have higher<br>
AP than mages.<br></blockquote><div><br>And does it pan out in practice?<br=
><br>Or does shaped armour undermine it to destruction?<br><br></div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left=
: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">


In my experience, well made cold iron plate is so expensive that by the tim=
e you can afford it<br>
you don&#39;t want it anymore.<br></blockquote><div><br>And any mage who de=
sires to wear plate will find magical plate well before they can afford tru=
e-silvered.<br><br>(And the magical plate will have other hoopy benefits).<=
br>
<br>IMHO, it&#39;s a broken mechanism.<br><br>Playing devil&#39;s advocate:=
 if it was thrown away altogether (i.e. no such thing as silvered, etc armo=
ur -- other than as fancy frippery that nobs wear of no particular benefit)=
 how many people would care?<br>
<br>Would the number of people and amount they care weight favorably in the=
 cost-benefit analysis of retaining it?<br><br>:)<br></div></div>

--000feaf31f3bc0484a0487a03c3b--


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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateFri, 28 May 2010 18:08:06 +1200
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Interesting questions,

 

More armour, more fire power, more speed, more Endurance, more..

 

The costs do seem prohibitive, and therefore they would be extremely rare.
Why buy such armour when you can get a magical one for a tenth the price. 

Household expenses in the Players Guide etc stops at wealthy - barons have
an income of 60,000 sp, and expenditures of 50k to 70k, per year. A silvered
suit of plate would be beyond them.

 

Only a serious contender for a Sun King would commission a suit of
true-silver.

 

To me, unless silvering or true-silvering, or mithril, gives a unique
advantage, there is little to recommend it. It would be nice if they did,
but not in the current rules.

 

I guess the question for me becomes:

"what is the problem with (true) silvered plate being extremely rare in the
game?"

 

If so, and we want such plate to be less rare, do we:

1.	lower the price
2.	raise the value (say by assigning unique abilities to each metal
that cannot be replicated by magic)
3.	a lesser amount of both of these.

 

Ian 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:17 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin












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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Interesting =
questions,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>More armour, more fire power, more =
speed,
more Endurance, more&#8230;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The costs do seem prohibitive, and
therefore they would be extremely rare. Why buy such armour when you can =
get a
magical one for a tenth the price. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Household expenses in the Players =
Guide
etc stops at wealthy &#8211; barons have an income of 60,000 sp, and
expenditures of 50k to 70k, per year. A silvered suit of plate would be =
beyond
them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Only a serious contender for a Sun =
King
would commission a suit of true-silver.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me, unless silvering or =
true-silvering,
or mithril, gives a unique advantage, there is little to recommend it. =
It would
be nice if they did, but not in the current =
rules.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I guess the question for me =
becomes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&#8220;what is the problem with =
(true) silvered
plate being extremely rare in the =
game?&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If so, and we want such plate to be =
less
rare, do we:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>lower
     the price<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>raise
     the value (say by assigning unique abilities to each metal that =
cannot be
     replicated by magic)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>a
     lesser amount of both of these.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Martin Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 4:17 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value =
of the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromJim Arona
DateFri, 28 May 2010 22:15:43 +1200
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The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.
We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.
Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.
Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.
Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>wrote:
>
>>
>> These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but
>> our current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day,
>> a number has to be picked.
>>
>>
> Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
> lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
> the effect granted?
>
> Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup).
> Truesilvering armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).
> What is the bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?
>
> Or, to look at this another way:
>
> Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:
>
> Suit of Magical Chainmail
> (effective Armourer Rank 0)
> [Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
> Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
> (and being shaped, allow casting).
>
> Guild Valuation: ???
>
> I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
> reduced cost of 51,200sp.
>
> 3 or 4k?
>
> Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
> Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
> all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
> So we might want a premium on this...
>
> 5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)
>
> These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the
> effect granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped
> armour.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">The value of having a high cost of silver=
ed, gilded or truesilvered armour is not what a player will pay for it. It&=
#39;s function is to inform us of=A0it&#39;s frequency of occurrence=A0in t=
he play environment. If we make the cost extremely high, then this is like =
saying=A0spell-casting plate wearers are very rare.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">We do not disallow pcs from owning=A0high prot =
armour that you can cast out of. We just want to make it rare enough so tha=
t only pcs and special npcs are going to wander around in it.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">Nor, I think,=A0is there any real reason to=A0m=
ake the costs congruent. If the cost for gilded armour drops, more people w=
ill wear it, which is dull. If the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be=
 able to afford it =A0(also dull), or income from games increases. Which me=
ans that all of those people who could give=A0a rat&#39;s arse about armour=
 will have a lot of money to do other stuff with.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs =
consider other alternatives is all that needs to be done.=A0 And, making su=
re that caster armour (and all the other stuff that routinely gets given ou=
t) does not spring from a source inside the world. In other words, it must =
be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will tack on it whatever=A0cost he cons=
iders appropriate.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">Unless you want to create an actual economy. Ev=
en a feudal economy would be fiendishly complicated. I would be on the side=
lines and=A0observing=A0before you could say &#39;Train wreck&#39;.<br></fo=
nt><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggin=
s <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top"><br>These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on wei=
ght or anything, but our current system isn&#39;t based on weight either, a=
nd at the end of the day, a number has to be picked.<br><br></td></tr></tbo=
dy></table>
</blockquote></div><br>Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right =
approach to me Bernard, lets not worry about metal weights or values, rathe=
r: what is the value of the effect granted?<br><br>Shaped armour allows cas=
ting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering armour permits casting=
. (Silvering the same with less well).=A0 What is the bonus / surcharge val=
ue of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>Or, to look at this another way:<br><br>Open question to GMs, what valu=
e would you place on:<br><br>Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>(effective Armour=
er Rank 0)<br>[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>Shaped to sparkle pret=
tily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br><br>Guild Valuation: ???<br><br>I&#39=
;m guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested redu=
ced cost of 51,200sp.<br><br>3 or 4k?<br><br>Silvering and True-Silvering a=
re however commodity -- they&#39;re something Players can just decide to do=
 -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all magical-goodies... GMs.=
 :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br><br>5k?=A0 (and maybe 2k for silv=
ering?)<br><br>These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the val=
ue of the effect granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in=
 shaped armour.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br><font color=3D"#888888">Martin<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><b=
r><br><br><br></font></blockquote></div><br>

--00148531a6132c1ee40487a4caae--


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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateFri, 28 May 2010 23:00:21 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
ability to cast when wearing plate.

 

If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.

We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.

 

I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. 

But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.

We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.

Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.

Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.

Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin











 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>IT would be useful to me to learn =
what GMS
think the value is for the ability to cast when wearing =
plate.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why =
have
any restriction at all.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We may as well hand it out at guild
meetings.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>But then expect to meet it fairly
frequently on NPCs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 10:16
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded =
or
truesilvered armour is not what a player will pay for it. It's function =
is to
inform us of&nbsp;it's frequency of occurrence&nbsp;in the play =
environment. If
we make the cost extremely high, then this is like =
saying&nbsp;spell-casting
plate wearers are very rare.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>We do not disallow pcs from owning&nbsp;high prot =
armour
that you can cast out of. We just want to make it rare enough so that =
only pcs
and special npcs are going to wander around in =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Nor, I think,&nbsp;is there any real reason =
to&nbsp;make
the costs congruent. If the cost for gilded armour drops, more people =
will wear
it, which is dull. If the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able =
to
afford it &nbsp;(also dull), or income from games increases. Which means =
that
all of those people who could give&nbsp;a rat's arse about armour will =
have a
lot of money to do other stuff with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs =
consider
other alternatives is all that needs to be done.&nbsp; And, making sure =
that
caster armour (and all the other stuff that routinely gets given out) =
does not
spring from a source inside the world. In other words, it must be =
awarded by
the hand of a DM, who will tack on it whatever&nbsp;cost he considers
appropriate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Unless you want to create =
an
actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be fiendishly complicated. I =
would
be on the sidelines and&nbsp;observing&nbsp;before you could say 'Train =
wreck'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value =
of the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'>Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromJim Arona
DateFri, 28 May 2010 23:46:57 +1200
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I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there is one that does not
create unwanted economic pressures.
I'm happy to set it at whatever other people choose, and also to set this
convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else happens, however, it
will always simply be a valuation. I like these things to be rare, in the
hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being peeled out of it. There is no
shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to fight your way through a
flight of dragons to get to the counter only to deal with a salesman wearing
an unusual amount of scale and bearing more than a passing resemblance to
someone you recently met.
It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to say rare but not unknown, and
the valuation has little impact on it.
The game tells us that it *IS *incredibly rare in the world by making the
cost of gilding armour exorbitant. That doesn't mean that it will be
similarly rare for pcs. These are people, after all, who go to strange new
places, meet interesting entities and divest them of their
clothing with shameless rapacity.
In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation will be great enough that
it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, but not so great that
they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale value. In the best of all
possible worlds, they will be tormented by indecision for sessions.
I can feed on this torment for quite some time.

On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>  IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
> ability to cast when wearing plate.
>
>
>
> If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.
>
> We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.
>
>
>
> I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable.
>
> But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf Of
> *Jim Arona
> *Sent:* Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM
>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
>
>
>
> The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
> is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
> frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
> extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
> very rare.
>
> We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
> of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
> are going to wander around in it.
>
> Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
> cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
> the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
> or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
> could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
> stuff with.
>
> Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
> is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
> the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
> inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
> who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.
>
> Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
> fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
> could say 'Train wreck'.
>
> On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
> These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but
> our current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day,
> a number has to be picked.
>
>
> Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
> lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
> the effect granted?
>
> Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup).
> Truesilvering armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).
> What is the bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?
>
> Or, to look at this another way:
>
> Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:
>
> Suit of Magical Chainmail
> (effective Armourer Rank 0)
> [Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
> Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
> (and being shaped, allow casting).
>
> Guild Valuation: ???
>
> I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
> reduced cost of 51,200sp.
>
> 3 or 4k?
>
> Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
> Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
> all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
> So we might want a premium on this...
>
> 5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)
>
> These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the
> effect granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped
> armour.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I don&#39;t have a set amount, and I don&=
#39;t think there is=A0one that does not create unwanted economic pressures=
.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">I&#39;m happy to set it at whatever other peopl=
e choose, and also to set this convention aside at a moment&#39;s notice. W=
hatever else happens, however,=A0it will always simply be a valuation. I li=
ke these things to=A0be rare, in the hands of powerful NPCs, who will resen=
t being peeled out of it. There is no shop you can buy it at. Well, unless =
you have to fight your way through a flight of dragons to get to the counte=
r=A0only to=A0deal with=A0a salesman wearing an unusual amount of scale and=
 bearing more than a passing resemblance to someone you recently met.</font=
></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to s=
ay=A0rare but not unknown,=A0and the valuation has=A0little impact on it.</=
font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">The game tells us that it <strong><em>IS </em><=
/strong>incredibly rare in the world=A0by making the cost of gilding armour=
 exorbitant. That doesn&#39;t mean that it will be similarly rare for pcs. =
These are people, after all, who=A0go to strange new places, meet interesti=
ng=A0entities and divest them of their clothing=A0with=A0shameless=A0rapaci=
ty.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">In the best of all possible worlds, the valuati=
on will be great enough that it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can=
 afford, but not so great that they could buy the Destinian Empire on its r=
esale value. In the best of all possible worlds,=A0they will be tormented b=
y indecision for sessions. </font></div>

<div><font face=3D"Georgia">I can feed on this torment for quite some time.=
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"blue" link=3D"blue">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">IT would be use=
ful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the ability to cast when=
 wearing plate.</span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">If it is only 3=
k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">We may as well =
hand it out at guild meetings.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think 30 to 5=
0k seems reasonable. </span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But then expect=
 to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ian</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><fon=
t size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"F=
ONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></font>=
</b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">=
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:=
 bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, 2010 =
10:16 PM=20
<div class=3D"im"><br><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <=
a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>=
<b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Silvered/=
True Silvered Armour prices.</div>
</span></font>
<p></p></p></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The value of having a high cost of silv=
ered, gilded or truesilvered armour is not what a player will pay for it. I=
t&#39;s function is to inform us of=A0it&#39;s frequency of occurrence=A0in=
 the play environment. If we make the cost extremely high, then this is lik=
e saying=A0spell-casting plate wearers are very rare.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">We do not disallow pcs from owning=A0hi=
gh prot armour that you can cast out of. We just want to make it rare enoug=
h so that only pcs and special npcs are going to wander around in it.</span=
></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Nor, I think,=A0is there any real reaso=
n to=A0make the costs congruent. If the cost for gilded armour drops, more =
people will wear it, which is dull. If the cost increases, either fewer pcs=
 will be able to afford it =A0(also dull), or income from games increases. =
Which means that all of those people who could give=A0a rat&#39;s arse abou=
t armour will have a lot of money to do other stuff with.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Making the stuff expensive enough that =
the pcs consider other alternatives is all that needs to be done.=A0 And, m=
aking sure that caster armour (and all the other stuff that routinely gets =
given out) does not spring from a source inside the world. In other words, =
it must be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will tack on it whatever=A0cost=
 he considers appropriate.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Unless y=
ou want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be fiendis=
hly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and=A0observing=A0before you c=
ould say &#39;Train wreck&#39;.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></p>

<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.c=
o.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></p>

<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td style=3D"PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0cm" valign=3D"top">
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>These are rather a=
rbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our current system i=
sn&#39;t based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a number has to=
 be picked.</span></font></p>
</td></tr></tbody></table></div>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>Arbitrary they may=
 be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard, lets not worry ab=
out metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of the effect grante=
d?<br>
<br>Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilv=
ering armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).=A0 What =
is the bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br><br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br><br>Open question to GMs, what value wo=
uld you place on:<br><br>Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>(effective Armourer R=
ank 0)<br>[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>Shaped to sparkle prettily=
 in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br><br>Guild Valuation: ???<br><br>I&#39=
;m guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested redu=
ced cost of 51,200sp.<br><br>3 or 4k?<br><br>Silvering and True-Silvering a=
re however commodity -- they&#39;re something Players can just decide to do=
 -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all magical-goodies... GMs.=
 :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br><br>5k?=A0 (and maybe 2k for silv=
ering?)<br><br>These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the val=
ue of the effect granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in=
 shaped armour.<br>
<br>Cheers,<br><font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D"COLOR: #888888">Marti=
n<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br></span></font></span></font></p></=
div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div><br>

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