SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromHamish Brown
DateSat, 29 May 2010 11:22:28 +1200
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I'm with Martin on this (I think - if I get what your saying Martin)

 

We don't want PCs at medium levels to be seeking 10 point caster amour from
GM's we want them to be able to save up and get it for them selves.  For
this reason it should be cheaper.  Bernard's costs are about right to me.
That way once the PC's in silvered armour get to high level they can seek
the illusive dragon skin with hoopy magic attached.  The point is we don't
want PC's going out to try to kill dragon at medium level because it's the
only place to get amour.

Gilded amour should be more available in the world than the magical skin of
fantastical creatures.  Every decent knight should be able to own 1 set cool
looking silvered amour for Sunday best..

 

Hamish

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:47 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there is one that does not
create unwanted economic pressures.

I'm happy to set it at whatever other people choose, and also to set this
convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else happens, however, it
will always simply be a valuation. I like these things to be rare, in the
hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being peeled out of it. There is no
shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to fight your way through a
flight of dragons to get to the counter only to deal with a salesman wearing
an unusual amount of scale and bearing more than a passing resemblance to
someone you recently met.

It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to say rare but not unknown, and
the valuation has little impact on it.

The game tells us that it IS incredibly rare in the world by making the cost
of gilding armour exorbitant. That doesn't mean that it will be similarly
rare for pcs. These are people, after all, who go to strange new places,
meet interesting entities and divest them of their clothing with shameless
rapacity.

In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation will be great enough that
it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, but not so great that
they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale value. In the best of all
possible worlds, they will be tormented by indecision for sessions. 

I can feed on this torment for quite some time.

 

On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
ability to cast when wearing plate.

 

If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.

We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.

 

I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. 

But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM 


To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.

We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.

Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.

Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.

Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin










 

 


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m with Martin on this (I =
think &#8211;
if I get what your saying Martin)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We don&#8217;t want PCs at medium =
levels
to be seeking 10 point caster amour from GM&#8217;s we want them to be =
able to
save up and get it for them selves.&nbsp; For this reason it should be =
cheaper. &nbsp;Bernard&#8217;s
costs are about right to me.&nbsp; That way once the PC&#8217;s in =
silvered armour
get to high level they can seek the illusive dragon skin with hoopy =
magic
attached.&nbsp; The point is we don&#8217;t want PC&#8217;s going out to =
try to kill
dragon at medium level because it&#8217;s the only place to get =
amour.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Gilded amour should be more =
available in
the world than the magical skin of fantastical creatures.&nbsp; Every =
decent knight
should be able to own 1 set cool looking silvered amour for Sunday =
best..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish</span></fo=
nt></st1:PersonName><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 11:47
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there
is&nbsp;one that does not create unwanted economic =
pressures.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I'm happy to set it at whatever other people =
choose, and
also to set this convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else =
happens,
however,&nbsp;it will always simply be a valuation. I like these things
to&nbsp;be rare, in the hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being =
peeled
out of it. There is no shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to =
fight
your way through a flight of dragons to get to the counter&nbsp;only
to&nbsp;deal with&nbsp;a salesman wearing an unusual amount of scale and
bearing more than a passing resemblance to someone you recently =
met.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to
say&nbsp;rare but not unknown,&nbsp;and the valuation has&nbsp;little =
impact on
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>The game tells us that it <em><b><i><font =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;font-weight:bold'>IS =
</span></font></i></b></em>incredibly
rare in the world&nbsp;by making the cost of gilding armour exorbitant. =
That
doesn't mean that it will be similarly rare for pcs. These are people, =
after
all, who&nbsp;go to strange new places, meet interesting&nbsp;entities =
and
divest them of their =
clothing&nbsp;with&nbsp;shameless&nbsp;rapacity.</span></font><o:p></o:p>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation =
will be
great enough that it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, =
but
not so great that they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale =
value. In
the best of all possible worlds,&nbsp;they will be tormented by =
indecision for
sessions. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I can feed on this torment for quite some =
time.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div vlink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value =
is for
the ability to cast when wearing plate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at =
all.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>We may as well hand it out at guild =
meetings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on =
NPCs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz"
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 10:16
PM <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The
value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour =
is not
what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us =
of&nbsp;it's
frequency of occurrence&nbsp;in the play environment. If we make the =
cost
extremely high, then this is like saying&nbsp;spell-casting plate =
wearers are
very rare.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>We do
not disallow pcs from owning&nbsp;high prot armour that you can cast out =
of. We
just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs are =
going to
wander around in it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Nor, I
think,&nbsp;is there any real reason to&nbsp;make the costs congruent. =
If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. =
If the
cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it &nbsp;(also =
dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who =
could
give&nbsp;a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other =
stuff
with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Making
the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives is =
all that
needs to be done.&nbsp; And, making sure that caster armour (and all the =
other
stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source =
inside the
world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will =
tack on
it whatever&nbsp;cost he considers =
appropriate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Unless
you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be =
fiendishly
complicated. I would be on the sidelines and&nbsp;observing&nbsp;before =
you
could say 'Train wreck'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 28 =
May 2010
16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com"
target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On =
Thu, May 27,
2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk"
target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
  size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard, lets
not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of =
the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'>Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 May 2010 11:53:21 +1200
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<I can feed on this torment for quite some time.>

 

:-D

 

Ian

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:47 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there is one that does not
create unwanted economic pressures.

I'm happy to set it at whatever other people choose, and also to set this
convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else happens, however, it
will always simply be a valuation. I like these things to be rare, in the
hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being peeled out of it. There is no
shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to fight your way through a
flight of dragons to get to the counter only to deal with a salesman wearing
an unusual amount of scale and bearing more than a passing resemblance to
someone you recently met.

It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to say rare but not unknown, and
the valuation has little impact on it.

The game tells us that it IS incredibly rare in the world by making the cost
of gilding armour exorbitant. That doesn't mean that it will be similarly
rare for pcs. These are people, after all, who go to strange new places,
meet interesting entities and divest them of their clothing with shameless
rapacity.

In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation will be great enough that
it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, but not so great that
they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale value. In the best of all
possible worlds, they will be tormented by indecision for sessions. 

 

On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
ability to cast when wearing plate.

 

If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.

We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.

 

I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. 

But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM 


To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.

We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.

Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.

Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.

Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin










 

 


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>&lt;I can feed on this torment for quite some =
time.&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>:-D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 11:47
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there
is&nbsp;one that does not create unwanted economic =
pressures.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I'm happy to set it at whatever other people =
choose, and
also to set this convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else =
happens,
however,&nbsp;it will always simply be a valuation. I like these things
to&nbsp;be rare, in the hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being =
peeled
out of it. There is no shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to =
fight
your way through a flight of dragons to get to the counter&nbsp;only
to&nbsp;deal with&nbsp;a salesman wearing an unusual amount of scale and
bearing more than a passing resemblance to someone you recently =
met.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to
say&nbsp;rare but not unknown,&nbsp;and the valuation has&nbsp;little =
impact on
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>The game tells us that it <em><b><i><font =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;font-weight:bold'>IS =
</span></font></i></b></em>incredibly
rare in the world&nbsp;by making the cost of gilding armour exorbitant. =
That
doesn't mean that it will be similarly rare for pcs. These are people, =
after
all, who&nbsp;go to strange new places, meet interesting&nbsp;entities =
and
divest them of their =
clothing&nbsp;with&nbsp;shameless&nbsp;rapacity.</span></font><o:p></o:p>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation =
will be
great enough that it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, =
but
not so great that they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale =
value. In
the best of all possible worlds,&nbsp;they will be tormented by =
indecision for
sessions. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div vlink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value =
is for
the ability to cast when wearing plate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at =
all.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>We may as well hand it out at guild =
meetings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on =
NPCs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz"
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 10:16
PM <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The
value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour =
is not
what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us =
of&nbsp;it's
frequency of occurrence&nbsp;in the play environment. If we make the =
cost
extremely high, then this is like saying&nbsp;spell-casting plate =
wearers are
very rare.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>We do
not disallow pcs from owning&nbsp;high prot armour that you can cast out =
of. We
just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs are =
going to
wander around in it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Nor, I
think,&nbsp;is there any real reason to&nbsp;make the costs congruent. =
If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. =
If the
cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it &nbsp;(also =
dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who =
could
give&nbsp;a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other =
stuff
with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Making
the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives is =
all that
needs to be done.&nbsp; And, making sure that caster armour (and all the =
other
stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source =
inside the
world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will =
tack on
it whatever&nbsp;cost he considers =
appropriate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Unless
you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be =
fiendishly
complicated. I would be on the sidelines and&nbsp;observing&nbsp;before =
you
could say 'Train wreck'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 28 =
May 2010
16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com"
target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On =
Thu, May 27,
2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk"
target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
  size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard, lets
not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of =
the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'>Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
Subject[dq] Bronze Armour is sooo last Era WAS: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 May 2010 13:16:01 +1200
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Sorry, but looking through the rules, this conversation seems to boil down
to "just wear Bronze Armour".

 

You are a mage, you want to cast, and you want more protection than Leather.


Bronze Improved Plate gives protection of 6. 

It is only 6 lb heavier for a human than Partial Plate - raise your strength
and no one will know.

 

***

On a sillier note, this discussion would not have come about if the
non-mages with their hoopy armour did their job and stopped the mages from
getting hurt.

 

 

***

ok, assuming all the above is irrelevant.

 

I accept everything Hamish wrote except for his last sentence.

 

Wealthy knights would mean 10,000 suits of silvered armour in the Western
Kingdom (using %ages of knights in 15th century Europe).

And I would guess 1000 true silvered.

Which is not rare. 

 

To me rare would be say 100 in the western kingdom (90 silvered and 10 true
silvered) which would have a criteria of say 

'worn by combat-mages working for affluent counts and other senior nobles,
by superior mages and greater nobles who are mages'

This way, not only will "the wearer resent being peeled out of it" (thank
you Jim for that comment) so will their employer

 

And I reiterate, if there is no barrier to wearing such armour, why have the
rule about cold iron? 

If we want it to be rare, make it rare, not cheaply available to commoners.

Isil Eth could outfit the entire guild with a silvered suit if they cost
13k5 sp each.

(And I guess Engleton would outfit his entire guard so you could not tell
which ones are the mages.)

 

 

At 33,500 each (current rules) she would have to think about it, as would
most barons (not for themselves but for their combat mage).

The difference between Silvered and True silvered is the former penalizes
the cast chance by -10, which is offset by a Rank 9 Greater. 

The Annoying thing is that those that can only afford the silvered normally
can't afford the -10 to cast chance.

 

Getting around this would, I think, require a bit of a rewrite to the Armour
rules to something like:

 

 

1. Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection, +2 weight - cost is the same.
Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

2. Silvered Armour has 1 point less protection, weight is the same - cost is
+ 20,000 sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

3. Truesilvered Armour has the same protection, -2 weight - cost is +100,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

 

Notes: 

a. I reordered the armour, bronze to silver to true silver.

b. I changed the term Base Chance to Cast Chance.

c. I made the changes to the protection, weight and cost, not to cast chance
nor AG mod nor stealth.

d. I left in references to Cast Chance so old GMs like me would know there
has been a change.

 

Ian

 

**

For reference here are the current rules:

Silvered Armour has the same protection -

cost is + 30,000 sp. Permits magic at -10%

to Base Chance.

2. Truesilvered Armour has the same protection

- cost is + 180,000 sp. Permits magic

at no modification to Base Chance.

3. Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection

- cost is the same. Permits magic at

no modification to Base Chance.

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Hamish Brown
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 11:22 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I'm with Martin on this (I think - if I get what your saying Martin)

 

We don't want PCs at medium levels to be seeking 10 point caster amour from
GM's we want them to be able to save up and get it for them selves.  For
this reason it should be cheaper.  Bernard's costs are about right to me.
That way once the PC's in silvered armour get to high level they can seek
the illusive dragon skin with hoopy magic attached.  The point is we don't
want PC's going out to try to kill dragon at medium level because it's the
only place to get amour.

Gilded amour should be more available in the world than the magical skin of
fantastical creatures.  Every decent knight should be able to own 1 set cool
looking silvered amour for Sunday best..

 

Hamish

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:47 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there is one that does not
create unwanted economic pressures.

I'm happy to set it at whatever other people choose, and also to set this
convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else happens, however, it
will always simply be a valuation. I like these things to be rare, in the
hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being peeled out of it. There is no
shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to fight your way through a
flight of dragons to get to the counter only to deal with a salesman wearing
an unusual amount of scale and bearing more than a passing resemblance to
someone you recently met.

It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to say rare but not unknown, and
the valuation has little impact on it.

The game tells us that it IS incredibly rare in the world by making the cost
of gilding armour exorbitant. That doesn't mean that it will be similarly
rare for pcs. These are people, after all, who go to strange new places,
meet interesting entities and divest them of their clothing with shameless
rapacity.

In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation will be great enough that
it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, but not so great that
they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale value. In the best of all
possible worlds, they will be tormented by indecision for sessions. 

I can feed on this torment for quite some time.

 

On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
ability to cast when wearing plate.

 

If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.

We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.

 

I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. 

But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM 


To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.

We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.

Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.

Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.

Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin









 

 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Sorry, but looking through the =
rules, this
conversation seems to boil down to &#8220;just wear Bronze =
Armour&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You are a mage, you want to cast, =
and you
want more protection than Leather. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bronze Improved Plate gives =
protection of
6. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is only 6 lb heavier for a human =
than Partial
Plate &#8211; raise your strength and no one will =
know.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>***<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On a sillier note, this discussion =
would
not have come about if the non-mages with their hoopy armour did their =
job and
stopped the mages from getting hurt.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>***<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>ok, assuming all the above is =
irrelevant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I accept everything Hamish wrote =
except
for his last sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Wealthy knights would mean 10,000 =
suits of
silvered armour in the <st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Western</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on">Kingdom</st1:PlaceType> (using %ages of knights in =
15<sup>th</sup> century
<st1:place w:st=3D"on">Europe</st1:place>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I would guess 1000 true =
silvered.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Which is not rare. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me rare would be say 100 in the =
western
kingdom (90 silvered and 10 true silvered) which would have a criteria =
of say <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&#8216;worn by combat-mages working =
for affluent
counts and other senior nobles, by superior mages and greater nobles who =
are
mages&#8217;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This way, not only will &#8220;the =
wearer resent
being peeled out of it&#8221; (thank you Jim for that comment) so will =
their
employer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I reiterate, if there is no =
barrier to
wearing such armour, why have the rule about cold iron? =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we want it to be rare, make it =
rare,
not cheaply available to commoners.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Isil Eth could outfit the entire =
guild with
a silvered suit if they cost 13k5 sp each.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(And I guess Engleton would outfit =
his
entire guard so you could not tell which ones are the =
mages.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>At 33,500 each (current rules) she =
would
have to think about it, as would most barons (not for themselves but for =
their
combat mage).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The difference between Silvered and =
True silvered
is the former penalizes the cast chance by -10, which is offset by a =
Rank 9
Greater. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The Annoying thing is that those =
that can
only afford the silvered normally can&#8217;t afford the -10 to cast =
chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Getting around this would, I think,
require a bit of a rewrite to the Armour rules to something =
like:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. Bronze
Armour has 2 points less protection, +2 weight &#8211; cost is the same.
Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. Silvered
Armour has 1 point less protection, weight is the same &#8211; cost is + =
20,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3.
Truesilvered Armour has the same protection, -2 weight &#8211; cost is =
+100,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Notes: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a. I
reordered the armour, bronze to silver to true =
silver.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>b. I changed
the term Base Chance to Cast Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>c. I made
the changes to the protection, weight and cost, not to cast chance nor =
AG mod
nor stealth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>d. I
left in references to Cast Chance so old GMs like me would know there =
has been
a change.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>**<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>For reference here are the current =
rules:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>Silvered
Armour has the same protection &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>cost
is + 30,000 sp. Permits magic at -10%<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>to
Base Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>2.
Truesilvered Armour has the same protection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>&#8211;
cost is + 180,000 sp. Permits magic<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>at
no modification to Base Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>3.
Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>&#8211;
cost is the same. Permits magic at<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:
8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>no modification to Base =
Chance.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Hamish =
Brown</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, May 29, =
2010 11:22
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m with Martin on this (I =
think
&#8211; if I get what your saying Martin)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We don&#8217;t want PCs at medium =
levels
to be seeking 10 point caster amour from GM&#8217;s we want them to be =
able to
save up and get it for them selves.&nbsp; For this reason it should be =
cheaper.
&nbsp;Bernard&#8217;s costs are about right to me.&nbsp; That way once =
the
PC&#8217;s in silvered armour get to high level they can seek the =
illusive
dragon skin with hoopy magic attached.&nbsp; The point is we don&#8217;t =
want
PC&#8217;s going out to try to kill dragon at medium level because =
it&#8217;s
the only place to get amour.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Gilded amour should be more =
available in
the world than the magical skin of fantastical creatures.&nbsp; Every =
decent
knight should be able to own 1 set cool looking silvered amour for =
Sunday
best..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish</span></fo=
nt></st1:PersonName><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Jim
Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 11:47
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there
is&nbsp;one that does not create unwanted economic =
pressures.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I'm happy to set it at whatever other people =
choose, and
also to set this convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else =
happens,
however,&nbsp;it will always simply be a valuation. I like these things
to&nbsp;be rare, in the hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being =
peeled
out of it. There is no shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to =
fight
your way through a flight of dragons to get to the counter&nbsp;only
to&nbsp;deal with&nbsp;a salesman wearing an unusual amount of scale and
bearing more than a passing resemblance to someone you recently =
met.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to
say&nbsp;rare but not unknown,&nbsp;and the valuation has&nbsp;little =
impact on
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>The game tells us that it <em><b><i><font =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;font-weight:bold'>IS =
</span></font></i></b></em>incredibly
rare in the world&nbsp;by making the cost of gilding armour exorbitant. =
That
doesn't mean that it will be similarly rare for pcs. These are people, =
after
all, who&nbsp;go to strange new places, meet interesting&nbsp;entities =
and
divest them of their =
clothing&nbsp;with&nbsp;shameless&nbsp;rapacity.</span></font><o:p></o:p>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation =
will be
great enough that it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, =
but
not so great that they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale =
value. In
the best of all possible worlds,&nbsp;they will be tormented by =
indecision for
sessions. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I can feed on this torment for quite some =
time.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div vlink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value =
is for
the ability to cast when wearing plate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at =
all.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>We may as well hand it out at guild =
meetings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on =
NPCs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz"
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 10:16
PM <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The
value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour =
is not
what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us =
of&nbsp;it's
frequency of occurrence&nbsp;in the play environment. If we make the =
cost
extremely high, then this is like saying&nbsp;spell-casting plate =
wearers are
very rare.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>We do
not disallow pcs from owning&nbsp;high prot armour that you can cast out =
of. We
just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs are =
going to
wander around in it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Nor, I
think,&nbsp;is there any real reason to&nbsp;make the costs congruent. =
If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. =
If the
cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it &nbsp;(also =
dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who =
could
give&nbsp;a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other =
stuff
with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Making
the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives is =
all that
needs to be done.&nbsp; And, making sure that caster armour (and all the =
other
stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source =
inside the
world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will =
tack on
it whatever&nbsp;cost he considers =
appropriate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Unless
you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be =
fiendishly
complicated. I would be on the sidelines and&nbsp;observing&nbsp;before =
you
could say 'Train wreck'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 28 =
May 2010
16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com"
target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On =
Thu, May 27,
2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk"
target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
  size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value =
of the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'>Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Bronze Armour is sooo last Era WAS: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromHamish Brown
DateSat, 29 May 2010 13:29:20 +1200
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Ian wrote

<The Annoying thing is that those that can only afford the silvered normally
can't afford the -10 to cast chance>

 

Agreed Ian 

 

Your numbers make sense to me too.

 

H

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Ian
Wood
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 1:16 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Bronze Armour is sooo last Era WAS: [dq] Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.

 

Sorry, but looking through the rules, this conversation seems to boil down
to "just wear Bronze Armour".

 

You are a mage, you want to cast, and you want more protection than Leather.


Bronze Improved Plate gives protection of 6. 

It is only 6 lb heavier for a human than Partial Plate - raise your strength
and no one will know.

 

***

On a sillier note, this discussion would not have come about if the
non-mages with their hoopy armour did their job and stopped the mages from
getting hurt.

 

 

***

ok, assuming all the above is irrelevant.

 

I accept everything Hamish wrote except for his last sentence.

 

Wealthy knights would mean 10,000 suits of silvered armour in the Western
Kingdom (using %ages of knights in 15th century Europe).

And I would guess 1000 true silvered.

Which is not rare. 

 

To me rare would be say 100 in the western kingdom (90 silvered and 10 true
silvered) which would have a criteria of say 

'worn by combat-mages working for affluent counts and other senior nobles,
by superior mages and greater nobles who are mages'

This way, not only will "the wearer resent being peeled out of it" (thank
you Jim for that comment) so will their employer

 

And I reiterate, if there is no barrier to wearing such armour, why have the
rule about cold iron? 

If we want it to be rare, make it rare, not cheaply available to commoners.

Isil Eth could outfit the entire guild with a silvered suit if they cost
13k5 sp each.

(And I guess Engleton would outfit his entire guard so you could not tell
which ones are the mages.)

 

 

At 33,500 each (current rules) she would have to think about it, as would
most barons (not for themselves but for their combat mage).

The difference between Silvered and True silvered is the former penalizes
the cast chance by -10, which is offset by a Rank 9 Greater. 

The Annoying thing is that those that can only afford the silvered normally
can't afford the -10 to cast chance.

 

Getting around this would, I think, require a bit of a rewrite to the Armour
rules to something like:

 

 

1. Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection, +2 weight - cost is the same.
Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

2. Silvered Armour has 1 point less protection, weight is the same - cost is
+ 20,000 sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

3. Truesilvered Armour has the same protection, -2 weight - cost is +100,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

 

Notes: 

a. I reordered the armour, bronze to silver to true silver.

b. I changed the term Base Chance to Cast Chance.

c. I made the changes to the protection, weight and cost, not to cast chance
nor AG mod nor stealth.

d. I left in references to Cast Chance so old GMs like me would know there
has been a change.

 

Ian

 

**

For reference here are the current rules:

Silvered Armour has the same protection -

cost is + 30,000 sp. Permits magic at -10%

to Base Chance.

2. Truesilvered Armour has the same protection

- cost is + 180,000 sp. Permits magic

at no modification to Base Chance.

3. Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection

- cost is the same. Permits magic at

no modification to Base Chance.

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Hamish Brown
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 11:22 AM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I'm with Martin on this (I think - if I get what your saying Martin)

 

We don't want PCs at medium levels to be seeking 10 point caster amour from
GM's we want them to be able to save up and get it for them selves.  For
this reason it should be cheaper.  Bernard's costs are about right to me.
That way once the PC's in silvered armour get to high level they can seek
the illusive dragon skin with hoopy magic attached.  The point is we don't
want PC's going out to try to kill dragon at medium level because it's the
only place to get amour.

Gilded amour should be more available in the world than the magical skin of
fantastical creatures.  Every decent knight should be able to own 1 set cool
looking silvered amour for Sunday best..

 

Hamish

 

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 11:47 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there is one that does not
create unwanted economic pressures.

I'm happy to set it at whatever other people choose, and also to set this
convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else happens, however, it
will always simply be a valuation. I like these things to be rare, in the
hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being peeled out of it. There is no
shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to fight your way through a
flight of dragons to get to the counter only to deal with a salesman wearing
an unusual amount of scale and bearing more than a passing resemblance to
someone you recently met.

It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to say rare but not unknown, and
the valuation has little impact on it.

The game tells us that it IS incredibly rare in the world by making the cost
of gilding armour exorbitant. That doesn't mean that it will be similarly
rare for pcs. These are people, after all, who go to strange new places,
meet interesting entities and divest them of their clothing with shameless
rapacity.

In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation will be great enough that
it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, but not so great that
they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale value. In the best of all
possible worlds, they will be tormented by indecision for sessions. 

I can feed on this torment for quite some time.

 

On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value is for the
ability to cast when wearing plate.

 

If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at all.

We may as well hand it out at guild meetings.

 

I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. 

But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on NPCs.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:16 PM 


To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

The value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour
is not what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us of it's
frequency of occurrence in the play environment. If we make the cost
extremely high, then this is like saying spell-casting plate wearers are
very rare.

We do not disallow pcs from owning high prot armour that you can cast out
of. We just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs
are going to wander around in it.

Nor, I think, is there any real reason to make the costs congruent. If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. If
the cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it  (also dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who
could give a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other
stuff with.

Making the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives
is all that needs to be done.  And, making sure that caster armour (and all
the other stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source
inside the world. In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM,
who will tack on it whatever cost he considers appropriate.

Unless you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be
fiendishly complicated. I would be on the sidelines and observing before you
could say 'Train wreck'.

On 28 May 2010 16:17, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:



These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, but our
current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the day, a
number has to be picked.


Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value of
the effect granted?

Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).  What is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?

Or, to look at this another way:

Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:

Suit of Magical Chainmail
(effective Armourer Rank 0)
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.
(and being shaped, allow casting).

Guild Valuation: ???

I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested
reduced cost of 51,200sp.

3 or 4k?

Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something
Players can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of
all magical-goodies... GMs. :)
So we might want a premium on this... 

5k?  (and maybe 2k for silvering?)

These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped armour.

Cheers,
Martin








 

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian =
wrote<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&lt;The Annoying thing is that =
those that
can only afford the silvered normally can&#8217;t afford the -10 to cast =
chance&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Agreed Ian =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Your numbers make sense to me =
too.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>H<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Ian Wood<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, May 29, =
2010 1:16
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] Bronze =
Armour is
sooo last Era WAS: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour =
prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Sorry, but looking through the =
rules, this
conversation seems to boil down to &#8220;just wear Bronze =
Armour&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You are a mage, you want to cast, =
and you
want more protection than Leather. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bronze Improved Plate gives =
protection of
6. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>It is only 6 lb heavier for a human =
than
Partial Plate &#8211; raise your strength and no one will =
know.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>***<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>On a sillier note, this discussion =
would
not have come about if the non-mages with their hoopy armour did their =
job and
stopped the mages from getting hurt.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>***<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>ok, assuming all the above is =
irrelevant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I accept everything <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">Hamish</st1:PersonName>
wrote except for his last sentence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Wealthy knights would mean 10,000 =
suits of
silvered armour in the <st1:PlaceName =
w:st=3D"on">Western</st1:PlaceName> <st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on">Kingdom</st1:PlaceType> (using %ages of knights in =
15<sup>th</sup>
century <st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Europe</st1:place>).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I would guess 1000 true =
silvered.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Which is not rare. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>To me rare would be say 100 in the =
western
kingdom (90 silvered and 10 true silvered) which would have a criteria =
of say <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&#8216;worn by combat-mages working =
for
affluent counts and other senior nobles, by superior mages and greater =
nobles
who are mages&#8217;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This way, not only will &#8220;the =
wearer
resent being peeled out of it&#8221; (thank you Jim for that comment) so =
will
their employer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And I reiterate, if there is no =
barrier to
wearing such armour, why have the rule about cold iron? =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we want it to be rare, make it =
rare,
not cheaply available to commoners.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Isil Eth could outfit the entire =
guild
with a silvered suit if they cost 13k5 sp =
each.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(And I guess Engleton would outfit =
his
entire guard so you could not tell which ones are the =
mages.)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>At 33,500 each (current rules) she =
would
have to think about it, as would most barons (not for themselves but for =
their
combat mage).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The difference between Silvered and =
True
silvered is the former penalizes the cast chance by -10, which is offset =
by a
Rank 9 Greater. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The Annoying thing is that those =
that can
only afford the silvered normally can&#8217;t afford the -10 to cast =
chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Getting around this would, I think,
require a bit of a rewrite to the Armour rules to something =
like:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1.
Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection, +2 weight &#8211; cost is =
the same.
Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2.
Silvered Armour has 1 point less protection, weight is the same &#8211; =
cost is
+ 20,000 sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3.
Truesilvered Armour has the same protection, -2 weight &#8211; cost is =
+100,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Notes: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a. I
reordered the armour, bronze to silver to true =
silver.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>b. I
changed the term Base Chance to Cast =
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>c. I
made the changes to the protection, weight and cost, not to cast chance =
nor AG
mod nor stealth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>d. I
left in references to Cast Chance so old GMs like me would know there =
has been
a change.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>**<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>For reference here are the current =
rules:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>Silvered
Armour has the same protection &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>cost
is + 30,000 sp. Permits magic at -10%<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>to
Base Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>2.
Truesilvered Armour has the same protection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>&#8211;
cost is + 180,000 sp. Permits magic<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>at
no modification to Base Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>3.
Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-autospace:none'><font size=3D1
face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>&#8211;
cost is the same. Permits magic at<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D1 face=3DNimbusRomNo9L-Regu><span =
style=3D'font-size:
8.0pt;font-family:NimbusRomNo9L-Regu'>no modification to Base =
Chance.</span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">Hamish</st1:PersonName>
 Brown</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, May 29, =
2010 11:22
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m with Martin on this (I =
think
&#8211; if I get what your saying Martin)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We don&#8217;t want PCs at medium =
levels
to be seeking 10 point caster amour from GM&#8217;s we want them to be =
able to
save up and get it for them selves.&nbsp; For this reason it should be =
cheaper.
&nbsp;Bernard&#8217;s costs are about right to me.&nbsp; That way once =
the
PC&#8217;s in silvered armour get to high level they can seek the =
illusive
dragon skin with hoopy magic attached.&nbsp; The point is we don&#8217;t =
want
PC&#8217;s going out to try to kill dragon at medium level because =
it&#8217;s
the only place to get amour.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Gilded amour should be more =
available in
the world than the magical skin of fantastical creatures.&nbsp; Every =
decent
knight should be able to own 1 set cool looking silvered amour for =
Sunday
best..<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hamish</span></fo=
nt></st1:PersonName><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dnavy face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 11:47
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I don't have a set amount, and I don't think there
is&nbsp;one that does not create unwanted economic =
pressures.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I'm happy to set it at whatever other people =
choose, and
also to set this convention aside at a moment's notice. Whatever else =
happens,
however,&nbsp;it will always simply be a valuation. I like these things
to&nbsp;be rare, in the hands of powerful NPCs, who will resent being =
peeled
out of it. There is no shop you can buy it at. Well, unless you have to =
fight
your way through a flight of dragons to get to the counter&nbsp;only
to&nbsp;deal with&nbsp;a salesman wearing an unusual amount of scale and
bearing more than a passing resemblance to someone you recently =
met.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>It is as rare as I want it to be, which is to
say&nbsp;rare but not unknown,&nbsp;and the valuation has&nbsp;little =
impact on
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>The game tells us that it <em><b><i><font =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-family:Georgia;font-weight:bold'>IS =
</span></font></i></b></em>incredibly
rare in the world&nbsp;by making the cost of gilding armour exorbitant. =
That
doesn't mean that it will be similarly rare for pcs. These are people, =
after
all, who&nbsp;go to strange new places, meet interesting&nbsp;entities =
and divest
them of their =
clothing&nbsp;with&nbsp;shameless&nbsp;rapacity.</span></font><o:p></o:p>=
</p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>In the best of all possible worlds, the valuation =
will be
great enough that it presents conflicts to a pc on what they can afford, =
but
not so great that they could buy the Destinian Empire on its resale =
value. In
the best of all possible worlds,&nbsp;they will be tormented by =
indecision for
sessions. </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I can feed on this torment for quite some =
time.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 28 May 2010 23:00, Ian Wood &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div vlink=3Dblue link=3Dblue>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>IT would be useful to me to learn what GMS think the value =
is for
the ability to cast when wearing plate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>If it is only 3k or 5k sp, then why have any restriction at =
all.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>We may as well hand it out at guild =
meetings.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>I think 30 to 50k seems reasonable. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>But then expect to meet it fairly frequently on =
NPCs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz"
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a
href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, May 28, =
2010 10:16
PM <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a
href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The
value of having a high cost of silvered, gilded or truesilvered armour =
is not
what a player will pay for it. It's function is to inform us =
of&nbsp;it's
frequency of occurrence&nbsp;in the play environment. If we make the =
cost
extremely high, then this is like saying&nbsp;spell-casting plate =
wearers are
very rare.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>We do
not disallow pcs from owning&nbsp;high prot armour that you can cast out =
of. We
just want to make it rare enough so that only pcs and special npcs are =
going to
wander around in it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Nor, I
think,&nbsp;is there any real reason to&nbsp;make the costs congruent. =
If the
cost for gilded armour drops, more people will wear it, which is dull. =
If the
cost increases, either fewer pcs will be able to afford it &nbsp;(also =
dull),
or income from games increases. Which means that all of those people who =
could
give&nbsp;a rat's arse about armour will have a lot of money to do other =
stuff
with.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Making
the stuff expensive enough that the pcs consider other alternatives is =
all that
needs to be done.&nbsp; And, making sure that caster armour (and all the =
other
stuff that routinely gets given out) does not spring from a source =
inside the world.
In other words, it must be awarded by the hand of a DM, who will tack on =
it
whatever&nbsp;cost he considers =
appropriate.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Unless
you want to create an actual economy. Even a feudal economy would be =
fiendishly
complicated. I would be on the sidelines and&nbsp;observing&nbsp;before =
you
could say 'Train wreck'.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On 28 =
May 2010
16:17, Martin Dickson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com"
target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>On =
Thu, May 27,
2010 at 10:07 AM, Bernard Hoggins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk"
target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
  size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  These are rather arbitrary numbers, not based on weight or anything, =
but our
  current system isn't based on weight either, and at the end of the =
day, a
  number has to be picked.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
Arbitrary they may be, but that does seem the right approach to me =
Bernard,
lets not worry about metal weights or values, rather: what is the value =
of the
effect granted?<br>
<br>
Shaped armour allows casting (unless excluded in the writeup). =
Truesilvering
armour permits casting. (Silvering the same with less well).&nbsp; What =
is the
bonus / surcharge value of being able to cast while wearing?<br>
<br>
Or, to look at this another way:<br>
<br>
Open question to GMs, what value would you place on:<br>
<br>
Suit of Magical Chainmail<br>
(effective Armourer Rank 0)<br>
[Otherwise normal Wt. Prot Stealth]<br>
Shaped to sparkle prettily in sunlight.<br>
(and being shaped, allow casting).<br>
<br>
Guild Valuation: ???<br>
<br>
I'm guessing the answer will not be 181,200 sp... or even the suggested =
reduced
cost of 51,200sp.<br>
<br>
3 or 4k?<br>
<br>
Silvering and True-Silvering are however commodity -- they're something =
Players
can just decide to do -- whereas magic items flow from that fount of all
magical-goodies... GMs. :)<br>
So we might want a premium on this... <br>
<br>
5k?&nbsp; (and maybe 2k for silvering?)<br>
<br>
These are equally arbitrary... but I think closer to the value of the =
effect
granted, or at least the way GMs currently cost casting in shaped =
armour.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><span style=3D'color:#888888'>Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromHelen Saggers
DateSat, 29 May 2010 15:11:29 +1200
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Armour smithed hard leather gives 5 points of protection and weights 18lbs
(male human) & -1 Ag 

Standard Chain gives 6 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male human) &
-2Ag

Standard full plate gives 7 points of protection and weights 48lbs (male
human) & -3Ag

Improved full plate gives 8 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male
human) & -3Ag

 

The weights of metal armour alone generally push a PCs up one level or more
than one level of encumbrance and drop Ag still further. 

Even for a nonmage wearing metal armour effects TMR, Def, Ft loss from
activity.

 

By medium level other than TMR these losses are having less of an impact on
the game as magical travel and Magical Def are generally employed by PCs.

PCs are making far more use of magic at that point & they need to be able to
cast without stripping off armour, but the opposition has also improved and
the weapons used do more damage (bigger weapons, more skill, weaponsmithing
or magical effects) it is not uncommon for the plus on a weapon to be 8- 10
pts or more.

It is no fun playing when every blow that hits stuns and so PCs need up
graded Armour to absorb that increased damage i.e. PCs require "mage plate".

 

It has been said before the game system wasn't designed for a campaign as
long as ours...  nor was it designed with some of the limitations we have
set in our multy GM system with regards to Player rewards. 

If Joe the GM wanted his players to have caster plate there was a system
within the rules for them to have it, the cost of such armour only mattered
to indicate its rarity when your standard cold iron plate only costs a
couple of thousand silver, and  Master Armour smithed iron plate 20 thousand
or so.

With our Multi GM system we have  limitations on the value of individual
items and of the total rewards for each season, what Bernard saying is that
GMs are giving out dragon skin style leather, or "mage plate" with other
magical effects with guild valuations within those rules and yet it is not
possible to include in the treasure a non magical suit of rank 0
Truesilvered armour due to that +180.

 

Example; a suit of Master rank silvered (not TS just Silvered) Imp plate
armour its by the book value is 55,080 sp, when it gets damaged the owner
can expect it to cost (by the book) over 5,000sp to get it fixed provided
they can find a master armourer to do the work.  As a loot Item in its
damaged state such a suit only just fit within the max  item value, and
would take up one and a half times the overall share value of a party member
in a high game or twice a single party members share in a medium, making the
suit a 3rd the total reward for the whole party.

 

There is no way Truesilver Armour of any form by current Book value can be
given as loot, and stay within those rules. The item value alone would be
the total reward for a whole high party for the adventure. 

 

It is not about whether Engalton or Isileth can or can't afford to outfit
their guard with TS plate, or how rare in the world such armours are,
although maybe it is because only master armourers can make them and the
cost of such commissions added to the construction costs  put such armours
out of the reach of lesser nobles.

 

It's about why  in the real world magical armours are given out by GMs when
non magical silver or TS armour is not... about turning the tide of loot
armour items away from caster armour with lighter weights and other extra
effects at the lower-medium end of the game when PCs start looking for
caster plate to something in the book. And giving those up and coming PCs
who do not get lucky enough to be able to acquire caster plate in the
treasure split an option (new spell or better armour) so they can step up
with those already in the medium + levels.

 

Bernard's cost for silvered may be a little light I'd like to see the
unsmithed armour at about 15-20k i.e. the same as a major spell. But the TS
cost can't really be above +50k or else it defeats the purpose of changing
the costs.

 

Helen

 

 

 

 


 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Armour smithed hard leather gives 5 points of protection =
and
weights 18lbs (male human) &amp; -1 Ag <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Standard Chain gives 6 points of protection and weights =
42lbs
(male human) &amp; -2Ag<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Standard full plate gives 7 points of protection and =
weights 48lbs
(male human) &amp; -3Ag<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Improved full plate gives 8 points of protection and =
weights 42lbs
(male human) &amp; -3Ag<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The weights of metal armour alone generally push a PCs up =
one
level or more than one level of encumbrance and drop Ag still further. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Even for a nonmage wearing metal armour effects TMR, Def, =
Ft
loss from activity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>By medium level other than TMR these losses are having =
less of
an impact on the game as magical travel and Magical Def are generally =
employed
by PCs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>PCs are making far more use of magic at that point &amp; =
they
need to be able to cast without stripping off armour, but the opposition =
has
also improved and the weapons used do more damage (bigger weapons, more =
skill, weaponsmithing&nbsp;
or magical effects) it is not uncommon for the plus on a weapon to be 8- =
10 pts
or more.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is no fun playing when every blow that hits stuns and =
so PCs
need up graded Armour to absorb that increased damage i.e. PCs require =
&#8220;mage
plate&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It has been said before the game system wasn&#8217;t =
designed
for a campaign as long as ours... &nbsp;nor was it designed with some of =
the limitations
we have set in our multy GM system with regards to Player rewards. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>If Joe the GM wanted his players to have caster plate =
there was
a system within the rules for them to have it, the cost of such armour =
only
mattered to indicate its rarity when your standard cold iron plate only =
costs a
couple of thousand silver, and &nbsp;Master Armour smithed iron plate 20
thousand or so.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>With our Multi GM system we have &nbsp;limitations on the =
value
of individual items and of the total rewards for each season, what =
Bernard
saying is that GMs are giving out dragon skin style leather, or =
&#8220;mage
plate&#8221; with other magical effects with guild valuations within =
those rules
and yet it is not possible to include in the treasure a non magical suit =
of
rank 0 Truesilvered armour due to that +180.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Example; a suit of Master rank silvered (not TS just =
Silvered) Imp
plate armour its by the book value is 55,080 sp, when it gets damaged =
the owner
can expect it to cost (by the book) over 5,000sp to get it fixed =
provided they
can find a master armourer to do the work. &nbsp;As a loot Item in its =
damaged
state such a suit only just fit within the max &nbsp;item value, and =
would take
up one and a half times the overall share value of a party member in a =
high
game or twice a single party members share in a medium, making the suit =
a 3<sup>rd</sup>
the total reward for the whole party.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>There is no way Truesilver Armour of any form by current =
Book value
can be given as loot, and stay within those rules. The item value alone =
would
be the total reward for a whole high party for the adventure. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is not about whether Engalton or Isileth can or =
can&#8217;t afford
to outfit their guard with TS plate, or how rare in the world such =
armours are,
although maybe it is because only master armourers can make them and the =
cost
of such commissions added to <b>the construction costs</b> &nbsp;put =
such armours
out of the reach of lesser nobles.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It&#8217;s about why &nbsp;in the real world magical =
armours are
given out by GMs when non magical silver or TS armour is not... about =
turning
the tide of loot armour items away from caster armour with lighter =
weights and
other extra effects at the lower-medium end of the game when PCs start =
looking
for caster plate to something in the book. And giving those up and =
coming PCs who
do not get lucky enough to be able to acquire caster plate in the =
treasure split
an option (new spell or better armour) so they can step up with those =
already in
the medium + levels.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bernard&#8217;s cost for silvered may be a little light =
I&#8217;d
like to see the unsmithed armour at about 15-20k i.e. the same as a =
major spell.
But the TS cost can&#8217;t really be above +50k or else it defeats the =
purpose
of changing the costs.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Helen<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 May 2010 16:42:24 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi Helen,

 

I got lost a little in the middle there, but I think it caught up by the
end.

I think we are quibbling over where to set the prices. 

Price control is only one aspect however.

 

I want the prices to be higher that you wrote:

 

1. I want to experience the following in DQ

a.	mage armour is available to medium rank guild members
b.	silvered and true-silvered armour is relatively rare (100s in
western Alusia)
c.	medium level mages are not penalized in combat.

 

2. Cheap "Mage plate" already exists in the rules.

a.	Bronze armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, and
fulfills all of your arguments and mine.
b.	A medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment
their statistics with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist potion
for AG or spend EP to raise their statistics.
c.	After all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little
more for it.
d.	Cost is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per
combat.

 

3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage plate from Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for
herself. She now has better options using magical items.
Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same
investment as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be
able to pay that.

Make it too low and every baron will wear it, and his combat mages will wear
silvered.

 

4. GMs would not pump up the damage if everyone did not keep increasing the
armour protection. PCs have 15 or more protection. D+3 is not going to do
anything, and players get upset if every hit is an endurance.

 

5. Changing the prices does not alter the fact that medium level mages
cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour table needs to be changed
as well, or just stick with bronze.

 

Please refer to my earlier post for comments on Bronze, changing the armour
table, and my preferred pricing.

 

Ian

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Helen Saggers
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 3:11 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 

Armour smithed hard leather gives 5 points of protection and weights 18lbs
(male human) & -1 Ag 

Standard Chain gives 6 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male human) &
-2Ag

Standard full plate gives 7 points of protection and weights 48lbs (male
human) & -3Ag

Improved full plate gives 8 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male
human) & -3Ag

 

The weights of metal armour alone generally push a PCs up one level or more
than one level of encumbrance and drop Ag still further. 

Even for a nonmage wearing metal armour effects TMR, Def, Ft loss from
activity.

 

By medium level other than TMR these losses are having less of an impact on
the game as magical travel and Magical Def are generally employed by PCs.

PCs are making far more use of magic at that point & they need to be able to
cast without stripping off armour, but the opposition has also improved and
the weapons used do more damage (bigger weapons, more skill, weaponsmithing
or magical effects) it is not uncommon for the plus on a weapon to be 8- 10
pts or more.

It is no fun playing when every blow that hits stuns and so PCs need up
graded Armour to absorb that increased damage i.e. PCs require "mage plate".

 

It has been said before the game system wasn't designed for a campaign as
long as ours...  nor was it designed with some of the limitations we have
set in our multy GM system with regards to Player rewards. 

If Joe the GM wanted his players to have caster plate there was a system
within the rules for them to have it, the cost of such armour only mattered
to indicate its rarity when your standard cold iron plate only costs a
couple of thousand silver, and  Master Armour smithed iron plate 20 thousand
or so.

With our Multi GM system we have  limitations on the value of individual
items and of the total rewards for each season, what Bernard saying is that
GMs are giving out dragon skin style leather, or "mage plate" with other
magical effects with guild valuations within those rules and yet it is not
possible to include in the treasure a non magical suit of rank 0
Truesilvered armour due to that +180.

 

Example; a suit of Master rank silvered (not TS just Silvered) Imp plate
armour its by the book value is 55,080 sp, when it gets damaged the owner
can expect it to cost (by the book) over 5,000sp to get it fixed provided
they can find a master armourer to do the work.  As a loot Item in its
damaged state such a suit only just fit within the max  item value, and
would take up one and a half times the overall share value of a party member
in a high game or twice a single party members share in a medium, making the
suit a 3rd the total reward for the whole party.

 

There is no way Truesilver Armour of any form by current Book value can be
given as loot, and stay within those rules. The item value alone would be
the total reward for a whole high party for the adventure. 

 

It is not about whether Engalton or Isileth can or can't afford to outfit
their guard with TS plate, or how rare in the world such armours are,
although maybe it is because only master armourers can make them and the
cost of such commissions added to the construction costs  put such armours
out of the reach of lesser nobles.

 

It's about why  in the real world magical armours are given out by GMs when
non magical silver or TS armour is not... about turning the tide of loot
armour items away from caster armour with lighter weights and other extra
effects at the lower-medium end of the game when PCs start looking for
caster plate to something in the book. And giving those up and coming PCs
who do not get lucky enough to be able to acquire caster plate in the
treasure split an option (new spell or better armour) so they can step up
with those already in the medium + levels.

 

Bernard's cost for silvered may be a little light I'd like to see the
unsmithed armour at about 15-20k i.e. the same as a major spell. But the TS
cost can't really be above +50k or else it defeats the purpose of changing
the costs.

 

Helen

 

 

 

 


 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
Helen,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I got lost a little in the middle =
there,
but I think it caught up by the end.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I think we are quibbling over where =
to set
the prices. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Price control is only one aspect =
however.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I want the prices to be higher that =
you
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. I want to experience the =
following in
DQ<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3Da>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>mage
     armour is available to medium rank guild =
members<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>silvered
     and true-silvered armour is relatively rare (100s in western =
Alusia)<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>medium
     level mages are not penalized in =
combat.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. Cheap &#8220;Mage plate&#8221; =
already
exists in the rules.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style=3D'margin-top:0cm' start=3D1 type=3Da>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bronze
     armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, and fulfills all =
of your
     arguments and mine.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A
     medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment their
     statistics with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist =
potion for
     AG or spend EP to raise their =
statistics.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>After
     all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little more for =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'color:navy;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3'><font size=3D2
     color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cost
     is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per =
combat.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage =
plate
from Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for herself. She now has better options =
using
magical items.<br>
Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same =
investment
as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be able to =
pay
that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Make it too low and every baron =
will wear
it, and his combat mages will wear =
silvered.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4. GMs would not pump up the damage =
if
everyone did not keep increasing the armour protection. PCs have 15 or =
more
protection. D+3 is not going to do anything, and players get upset if =
every hit
is an endurance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>5. Changing the prices does not =
alter the
fact that medium level mages cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The =
armour
table needs to be changed as well, or just stick with =
bronze.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Please refer to my earlier post for
comments on Bronze, changing the armour table, and my preferred =
pricing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b><st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Helen Saggers</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, May 29, =
2010 3:11
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Armour =
smithed hard
leather gives 5 points of protection and weights 18lbs (male human) =
&amp; -1 Ag
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Standard =
Chain gives
6 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male human) &amp; =
-2Ag<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Standard =
full plate
gives 7 points of protection and weights 48lbs (male human) &amp; =
-3Ag<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Improved =
full plate
gives 8 points of protection and weights 42lbs (male human) &amp; =
-3Ag<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>The weights =
of metal
armour alone generally push a PCs up one level or more than one level of
encumbrance and drop Ag still further. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Even for a =
nonmage
wearing metal armour effects TMR, Def, Ft loss from =
activity.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>By medium =
level
other than TMR these losses are having less of an impact on the game as =
magical
travel and Magical Def are generally employed by =
PCs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>PCs are =
making far
more use of magic at that point &amp; they need to be able to cast =
without
stripping off armour, but the opposition has also improved and the =
weapons used
do more damage (bigger weapons, more skill, weaponsmithing&nbsp; or =
magical
effects) it is not uncommon for the plus on a weapon to be 8- 10 pts or =
more.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It is no =
fun playing
when every blow that hits stuns and so PCs need up graded Armour to =
absorb that
increased damage i.e. PCs require &#8220;mage =
plate&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It has been =
said
before the game system wasn&#8217;t designed for a campaign as long as =
ours...
&nbsp;nor was it designed with some of the limitations we have set in =
our multy
GM system with regards to Player rewards. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>If Joe the =
GM wanted
his players to have caster plate there was a system within the rules for =
them
to have it, the cost of such armour only mattered to indicate its rarity =
when
your standard cold iron plate only costs a couple of thousand silver, =
and
&nbsp;Master Armour smithed iron plate 20 thousand or =
so.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>With our =
Multi GM
system we have &nbsp;limitations on the value of individual items and of =
the
total rewards for each season, what Bernard saying is that GMs are =
giving out
dragon skin style leather, or &#8220;mage plate&#8221; with other =
magical
effects with guild valuations within those rules and yet it is not =
possible to
include in the treasure a non magical suit of rank 0 Truesilvered armour =
due to
that +180.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Example; a =
suit of
Master rank silvered (not TS just Silvered) Imp plate armour its by the =
book
value is 55,080 sp, when it gets damaged the owner can expect it to cost =
(by
the book) over 5,000sp to get it fixed provided they can find a master =
armourer
to do the work. &nbsp;As a loot Item in its damaged state such a suit =
only just
fit within the max &nbsp;item value, and would take up one and a half =
times the
overall share value of a party member in a high game or twice a single =
party
members share in a medium, making the suit a 3<sup>rd</sup> the total =
reward
for the whole party.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>There is no =
way
Truesilver Armour of any form by current Book value can be given as =
loot, and
stay within those rules. The item value alone would be the total reward =
for a
whole high party for the adventure. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It is not =
about
whether Engalton or Isileth can or can&#8217;t afford to outfit their =
guard
with TS plate, or how rare in the world such armours are, although maybe =
it is
because only master armourers can make them and the cost of such =
commissions
added to <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>the construction =
costs</span></b>
&nbsp;put such armours out of the reach of lesser =
nobles.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>It&#8217;s =
about why
&nbsp;in the real world magical armours are given out by GMs when non =
magical
silver or TS armour is not... about turning the tide of loot armour =
items away
from caster armour with lighter weights and other extra effects at the
lower-medium end of the game when PCs start looking for caster plate to =
something
in the book. And giving those up and coming PCs who do not get lucky =
enough to
be able to acquire caster plate in the treasure split an option (new =
spell or
better armour) so they can step up with those already in the medium + =
levels.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Bernard&#821=
7;s cost
for silvered may be a little light I&#8217;d like to see the unsmithed =
armour
at about 15-20k i.e. the same as a major spell. But the TS cost =
can&#8217;t
really be above +50k or else it defeats the purpose of changing the =
costs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'>Helen<o:p></=
o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3D"#1f497d" =
face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span lang=3DEN-NZ =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Calibri'><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromBernard Hoggins
DateSat, 29 May 2010 06:36:43 +0000 (GMT)
--0-1251499302-1275115003=:95379
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Just to toss a few numbers into the hat.

Bronze Improved Plate (unranked) =3D 6 point. 7 Weight factor, -3 AG, 2850s=
p
Leather (Rk 4) =3D 5 point. =C2=A03 weight factor, -1 AG,=C2=A0 250sp.

So for 10 times the price, more than double the weight factor, you get 1 mo=
re point of protection.

Bronze Improved Plate (Rk 8) =3D 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, 25650sp

Better protection, but your paying a huge hunk load of cash for it.=C2=A0 I=
n terms of the massive amount of AG loss your probably taking as a low/medi=
um jumping into Improved plate without ag/weight improvement, I suspect mos=
t would require more than a 1 point improvement to justify this.

Silvered (Rk 0) improved plate.=C2=A0 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, 1285=
0(proposed), 32850sp(current), -10% cast chance to spells.

Under current pricing, it costs about 7000 more, and is inferior to the hig=
her ranked bronzed plate.=C2=A0 Under proposed pricing, it lands about in t=
he middle of the options in terms of price, yet due to the -10% cast chance=
, is inferior to the Rk 8 bronzed plate.

Just looking at these options, it seems to land in nicely as an option for =
characters, as it creates questions on if they think they can afford -10% c=
ast chance for a tanking armour, or if they need to spend that extra money =
on bronzed armour.
As a GM if I give out the armours between leather & improved plate in silve=
red, such as partial plate, it creates even more questions, yet doesn't cre=
ate a massive imbalance in the loot of the party if 2 or 3 suits are captur=
ed from the opposition.

Using these same figures.

Rk 8 True Silvered Improved plate.=C2=A0 10 points, 7 weight, -3 AG, 75650s=
p(proposed), 200650sp(current).

Under the current rules, this means this suit of improved plate, who's only=
 benefit is no cast penalty, comes out at about double what Isel'Eth paid f=
or a suit of 10 point mage plate.=C2=A0 Without knowing the exact stats of =
said mage plate it's difficult to compare directly.

Under the proposal, it comes out about 25k cheaper, not quite at the 100k m=
ark, but if the mage plate purchased was lighter, or lower AG penalty than =
improved plate, it works out about right.


Obviously these are only selective figures using Improved Plate, but the ma=
ths seems to work out and semi-agree with what a lot of the responses have =
been saying.=C2=A0 If it turns out to not be right, we can always adjust it=
 again in a few years time, and given how many suits of unusual mage plate =
are out there currently, a slight error here doesn't seem likely to break t=
he game.

To stop the endless fiddling with numbers, which even I'm prone to do, does=
 anyone have serious objections to moving forward with this and putting it =
to a vote at the Guild Meeting to get a formal headcount on where we are wi=
th happiness.


From Bernard Hoggins
=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

From: Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM

=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0AHi Helen, =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A=
I got lost a little in the middle there,=0Abut I think it caught up by the =
end. =0A=0AI think we are quibbling over where to set=0Athe prices.  =0A=0A=
Price control is only one aspect however. =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0AI want the pr=
ices to be higher that you=0Awrote: =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A1. I want to experi=
ence the following in=0ADQ =0A=0A=0A mage=0A     armour is available to med=
ium rank guild members =0A silvered=0A     and true-silvered armour is rela=
tively rare (100s in western Alusia) =0A medium=0A     level mages are not =
penalized in combat. =0A=0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A2. Cheap =E2=80=9CMage plate=E2=
=80=9D already=0Aexists in the rules. =0A=0A=0A Bronze=0A     armour is mag=
e friendly, using the current rules, and fulfills all of your=0A     argume=
nts and mine. =0A A=0A     medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate=
, and augment their=0A     statistics with waters of strength, armour of ea=
rth, herbalist potion for=0A     AG or spend EP to raise their statistics. =
=0A After=0A     all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little=
 more for it. =0A Cost=0A     is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some =
100s sp per combat. =0A=0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage=
 plate=0Afrom Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for herself. She now has better o=
ptions using=0Amagical items.
=0AWhich is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same inves=
tment=0Aas learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be abl=
e to pay=0Athat. =0A=0AMake it too low and every baron will wear=0Ait, and =
his combat mages will wear silvered. =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A4. GMs would not p=
ump up the damage if=0Aeveryone did not keep increasing the armour protecti=
on. PCs have 15 or more=0Aprotection. D+3 is not going to do anything, and =
players get upset if every hit=0Ais an endurance. =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0A5. Ch=
anging the prices does not alter the=0Afact that medium level mages cannot =
afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour=0Atable needs to be changed as we=
ll, or just stick with bronze. =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0APlease refer to my earli=
er post for=0Acomments on Bronze, changing the armour table, and my preferr=
ed pricing. =0A=0A =C2=A0 =0A=0AIan =0A=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A     =
 
--0-1251499302-1275115003=:95379
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Just to toss a few numbers into the hat.<br><=
br>Bronze Improved Plate (unranked) =3D 6 point. 7 Weight factor, -3 AG, 28=
50sp<br>Leather (Rk 4) =3D 5 point. &nbsp;3 weight factor, -1 AG,&nbsp; 250=
sp.<br><br>So for 10 times the price, more than double the weight factor, y=
ou get 1 more point of protection.<br><br>Bronze Improved Plate (Rk 8) =3D =
8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, 25650sp<br><br>Better protection, but your=
 paying a huge hunk load of cash for it.&nbsp; In terms of the massive amou=
nt of AG loss your probably taking as a low/medium jumping into Improved pl=
ate without ag/weight improvement, I suspect most would require more than a=
 1 point improvement to justify this.<br><br>Silvered (Rk 0) improved plate=
.&nbsp; 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, 12850(proposed), 32850sp(current),=
 -10% cast chance to spells.<br><br>Under current pricing, it costs about 7=
000 more,
 and is inferior to the higher ranked bronzed plate.&nbsp; Under proposed p=
ricing, it lands about in the middle of the options in terms of price, yet =
due to the -10% cast chance, is inferior to the Rk 8 bronzed plate.<br><br>=
Just looking at these options, it seems to land in nicely as an option for =
characters, as it creates questions on if they think they can afford -10% c=
ast chance for a tanking armour, or if they need to spend that extra money =
on bronzed armour.<br>As a GM if I give out the armours between leather &am=
p; improved plate in silvered, such as partial plate, it creates even more =
questions, yet doesn't create a massive imbalance in the loot of the party =
if 2 or 3 suits are captured from the opposition.<br><br>Using these same f=
igures.<br><br>Rk 8 True Silvered Improved plate.&nbsp; 10 points, 7 weight=
, -3 AG, 75650sp(proposed), 200650sp(current).<br><br>Under the current rul=
es, this means this suit of improved plate, who's only benefit is no
 cast penalty, comes out at about double what Isel'Eth paid for a suit of 1=
0 point mage plate.&nbsp; Without knowing the exact stats of said mage plat=
e it's difficult to compare directly.<br><br>Under the proposal, it comes o=
ut about 25k cheaper, not quite at the 100k mark, but if the mage plate pur=
chased was lighter, or lower AG penalty than improved plate, it works out a=
bout right.<br><br><br>Obviously these are only selective figures using Imp=
roved Plate, but the maths seems to work out and semi-agree with what a lot=
 of the responses have been saying.&nbsp; If it turns out to not be right, =
we can always adjust it again in a few years time, and given how many suits=
 of unusual mage plate are out there currently, a slight error here doesn't=
 seem likely to break the game.<br><br>To stop the endless fiddling with nu=
mbers, which even I'm prone to do, does anyone have serious objections to m=
oving forward with this and putting it to a vote at the Guild
 Meeting to get a formal headcount on where we are with happiness.<br><br><=
br>From Bernard Hoggins<br>=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br><br>--- On <b>Sat, 29=
/5/10, Ian Wood <i>&lt;dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; padd=
ing-left: 5px;"><br>From: Ian Wood &lt;dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz&gt;<br>Subject:=
 Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.<br>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>R=
eceived: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM<br><br><div id=3D"yiv386163157">=
=0A=0A=0A =0A =0A=0A =0A=0A<style>=0A<!--#yiv386163157 a:link=0A=09{}=0A#yi=
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pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}=0A#yiv386163157 div.Section1=0A=09{}=0A#yiv386163157  =
=0A _filtered #yiv386163157 {}=0A _filtered #yiv386163157 {}=0A _filtered #=
yiv386163157 {}=0A _filtered #yiv386163157 {}=0A _filtered #yiv386163157 {}=
=0A _filtered #yiv386163157 {}=0A#yiv386163157 ol=0A=09{margin-bottom:0cm;}=
=0A#yiv386163157 ul=0A=09{margin-bottom:0cm;}=0A-->=0A</style>=0A=0A<div cl=
ass=3D"Section1">=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"nav=
y" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color=
: navy;">Hi Helen,</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font siz=
e=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-=
family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I got lost a little in the m=
iddle there,=0Abut I think it caught up by the end.</span></font></p> =0A=
=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I think we =
are quibbling over where to set=0Athe prices. </span></font></p> =0A=0A<p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Price control is o=
nly one aspect however.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><fon=
t size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I want the prices to=
 be higher that you=0Awrote:</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 1=
0pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">1. I want to exper=
ience the following in=0ADQ</span></font></p> =0A=0A<ol style=3D"margin-top=
: 0cm;" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">=0A <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: =
navy;"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">mage=0A     armour is available to medium r=
ank guild members</span></font></li> =0A <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"c=
olor: navy;"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">silvered=0A     and true-silvered arm=
our is relatively rare (100s in western Alusia)</span></font></li> =0A <li =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: navy;"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">medium=
=0A     level mages are not penalized in combat.</span></font></li> =0A</ol=
>=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial=
"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;=
</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"n=
avy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; col=
or: navy;">2. Cheap =E2=80=9CMage plate=E2=80=9D already=0Aexists in the ru=
les.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<ol style=3D"margin-top: 0cm;" start=3D"1" typ=
e=3D"a">=0A <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: navy;"><font size=3D"2"=
 color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family:=
 Arial;">Bronze=0A     armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, an=
d fulfills all of your=0A     arguments and mine.</span></font></li> =0A <l=
i class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: navy;"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy=
" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">A=0A =
    medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment their=0A =
    statistics with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist potion f=
or=0A     AG or spend EP to raise their statistics.</span></font></li> =0A =
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: navy;"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"na=
vy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial;">Aft=
er=0A     all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little more f=
or it.</span></font></li> =0A <li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color: navy;=
"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial;">Cost=0A     is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s e=
p + some 100s sp per combat.</span></font></li> =0A</ol>=0A=0A<p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">3. Isil =
Eth bought 10 point mage plate=0Afrom Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for herse=
lf. She now has better options using=0Amagical items.<br>=0AWhich is why I =
think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same investment=0Aas learnin=
g the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be able to pay=0Athat.</=
span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"nav=
y" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color=
: navy;">Make it too low and every baron will wear=0Ait, and his combat mag=
es will wear silvered.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font=
 size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; f=
ont-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">4. GMs would not pum=
p up the damage if=0Aeveryone did not keep increasing the armour protection=
. PCs have 15 or more=0Aprotection. D+3 is not going to do anything, and pl=
ayers get upset if every hit=0Ais an endurance.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></f=
ont></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=
=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;=
">5. Changing the prices does not alter the=0Afact that medium level mages =
cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour=0Atable needs to be change=
d as well, or just stick with bronze.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =
=0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Please r=
efer to my earlier post for=0Acomments on Bronze, changing the armour table=
, and my preferred pricing.</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 10=
pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"> &nbsp;</span></font></p> =0A=0A<p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">Ian</span></font></=
p> =0A=0A<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Ari=
al"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">&nbsp=
;</span></font></p></div>=0A=0A =0A=0A</div></blockquote></td></tr></table>=
<br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      &nbsp;
--0-1251499302-1275115003=:95379--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 May 2010 21:30:02 +1200
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

I note, Bernard, that you have ignored the discussion about rarity.

 

1. I don't agree that there is an issue, so I appose the vote on that ground
alone. 

As you have demonstrated we have mage armour already in the game, and I
concur with that analysis

The cheap stuff is not hoopy and the hoopy stuff is rare and expensive.

 

 

 

If we stack Bronze vs steel armour of equivalent protection as you
suggested:

 

Steel Partial Plate          WT 6, Prot 6, AG mod -2, Cost 1500, Stealth -15

Bronze Improved Plate  WT 7, Prot 6, AG mod -3, Cost 2850, Stealth -20

Bronze Improved Plate costs 1350 sp more, weighs 6 more lbs, one less AG.

You get to cast in it! Surely that is worth 1 pt of AG and maybe a point of
TMR?

 

If we stack Bronze Heavy Plate against steel Full Plate we get

Full Plate                      WT 8, Prot 7, AG mod -3, Cost 2000, Stealth
-20

Bronze Heavy Plate       WT 8, Prot 7, AG mod -3, Cost 3500, Stealth -25

The Bronze Heavy Plate costs 1500 more which I consider a small price to be
able to cast in it. 

 

And from what you show, Rank 8 Bronze Improved plate = Rank 0 Silvered
Improved Plate and is still 7,000 sp cheaper.

 

 

 

2. I don't agree with your proposed prices as they will remove their rarity.
My earlier posts explain my position.

 

 

 

3. If GMs agree with you that it needs to be changed then I would support my
earlier suggestion for the reasons given earlier, although without the
weight penalty for bronze.

 

1. Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection, weight is the same - cost is
the same. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

2. Silvered Armour has 1 point less protection, weight is the same - cost is
+ 20,000 sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

3. Truesilvered Armour has the same protection, -2 weight - cost is +100,000
sp. Permits magic at no modification to Cast Chance.

 

Notes: 

a. I reordered the armour, bronze to silver to true silver.

b. I changed the term Base Chance to Cast Chance.

c. I made the changes to the protection, weight and cost, not to cast chance
nor AG mod nor stealth.

d. I left in references to Cast Chance so old GMs like me would know there
has been a change.

 

Ian

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Bernard Hoggins
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 6:37 PM
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.

 


Just to toss a few numbers into the hat.

Bronze Improved Plate (unranked) = 6 point. 7 Weight factor, -3 AG, 2850sp
Leather (Rk 4) = 5 point.  3 weight factor, -1 AG,  250sp.

So for 10 times the price, more than double the weight factor, you get 1
more point of protection.

Bronze Improved Plate (Rk 8) = 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, 25650sp

Better protection, but your paying a huge hunk load of cash for it.  In
terms of the massive amount of AG loss your probably taking as a low/medium
jumping into Improved plate without ag/weight improvement, I suspect most
would require more than a 1 point improvement to justify this.

Silvered (Rk 0) improved plate.  8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG,
12850(proposed), 32850sp(current), -10% cast chance to spells.

Under current pricing, it costs about 7000 more, and is inferior to the
higher ranked bronzed plate.  Under proposed pricing, it lands about in the
middle of the options in terms of price, yet due to the -10% cast chance, is
inferior to the Rk 8 bronzed plate.

Just looking at these options, it seems to land in nicely as an option for
characters, as it creates questions on if they think they can afford -10%
cast chance for a tanking armour, or if they need to spend that extra money
on bronzed armour.
As a GM if I give out the armours between leather & improved plate in
silvered, such as partial plate, it creates even more questions, yet doesn't
create a massive imbalance in the loot of the party if 2 or 3 suits are
captured from the opposition.

Using these same figures.

Rk 8 True Silvered Improved plate.  10 points, 7 weight, -3 AG,
75650sp(proposed), 200650sp(current).

Under the current rules, this means this suit of improved plate, who's only
benefit is no cast penalty, comes out at about double what Isel'Eth paid for
a suit of 10 point mage plate.  Without knowing the exact stats of said mage
plate it's difficult to compare directly.

Under the proposal, it comes out about 25k cheaper, not quite at the 100k
mark, but if the mage plate purchased was lighter, or lower AG penalty than
improved plate, it works out about right.


Obviously these are only selective figures using Improved Plate, but the
maths seems to work out and semi-agree with what a lot of the responses have
been saying.  If it turns out to not be right, we can always adjust it again
in a few years time, and given how many suits of unusual mage plate are out
there currently, a slight error here doesn't seem likely to break the game.

To stop the endless fiddling with numbers, which even I'm prone to do, does
anyone have serious objections to moving forward with this and putting it to
a vote at the Guild Meeting to get a formal headcount on where we are with
happiness.


From Bernard Hoggins
nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:


From: Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM

Hi Helen,

 

I got lost a little in the middle there, but I think it caught up by the
end.

I think we are quibbling over where to set the prices. 

Price control is only one aspect however.

 

I want the prices to be higher that you wrote:

 

1. I want to experience the following in DQ

a.	mage armour is available to medium rank guild members
b.	silvered and true-silvered armour is relatively rare (100s in
western Alusia)
c.	medium level mages are not penalized in combat.

 

2. Cheap "Mage plate" already exists in the rules.

a.	Bronze armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, and
fulfills all of your arguments and mine.
b.	A medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment
their statistics with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist potion
for AG or spend EP to raise their statistics.
c.	After all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little
more for it.
d.	Cost is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per
combat.

 

3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage plate from Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for
herself. She now has better options using magical items.
Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same
investment as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be
able to pay that.

Make it too low and every baron will wear it, and his combat mages will wear
silvered.

 

4. GMs would not pump up the damage if everyone did not keep increasing the
armour protection. PCs have 15 or more protection. D+3 is not going to do
anything, and players get upset if every hit is an endurance.

 

5. Changing the prices does not alter the fact that medium level mages
cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour table needs to be changed
as well, or just stick with bronze.

 

Please refer to my earlier post for comments on Bronze, changing the armour
table, and my preferred pricing.

 

Ian

 


 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I note, Bernard, that you have =
ignored the
discussion about rarity.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. I don&#8217;t agree that there =
is an
issue, so I appose the vote on that ground alone. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As you
have demonstrated we have mage armour already in the game, and I concur =
with
that analysis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The
cheap stuff is not hoopy and the hoopy stuff is rare and =
expensive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we stack Bronze vs steel armour =
of equivalent
protection as you suggested:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Steel Partial
Plate &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WT 6, Prot 6, AG =
mod -2,
Cost 1500, Stealth -15<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bronze Improved
Plate&nbsp; WT 7, Prot 6, AG mod -3, Cost 2850, Stealth =
-20<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bronze Improved Plate costs 1350 sp =
more,
weighs 6 more lbs, one less AG.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>You get to cast in it! Surely that =
is
worth 1 pt of AG and maybe a point of TMR?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>If we stack Bronze Heavy Plate =
against steel
Full Plate we get<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Full Plate
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WT
8, Prot 7, AG mod -3, Cost 2000, Stealth =
-20<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:36.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bronze Heavy
Plate &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; WT 8, Prot 7, AG mod -3, Cost 3500, =
Stealth
-25<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>The Bronze Heavy Plate costs 1500 =
more
which I consider a small price to be able to cast in it. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And from what you show, Rank 8 =
Bronze
Improved plate =3D Rank 0 Silvered Improved Plate and is still 7,000 sp =
cheaper.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. I don&#8217;t agree with your =
proposed
prices as they will remove their rarity. My earlier posts explain my =
position.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. If GMs agree with you that it =
needs to
be changed then I would support my earlier suggestion for the reasons =
given
earlier, although without the weight penalty for =
bronze.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>1. Bronze Armour has 2 points less
protection, weight is the same &#8211; cost is the same. Permits magic =
at no
modification to Cast Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>2. Silvered Armour has 1 point less
protection, weight is the same &#8211; cost is + 20,000 sp. Permits =
magic at no
modification to Cast Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>3. Truesilvered Armour has the same
protection, -2 weight &#8211; cost is +100,000 sp. Permits magic at no
modification to Cast Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Notes: =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>a. I reordered the armour, bronze =
to
silver to true silver.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>b. I changed the term Base Chance =
to Cast
Chance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>c. I made the changes to the =
protection,
weight and cost, not to cast chance nor AG mod nor =
stealth.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>d. I left in references to Cast =
Chance so
old GMs like me would know there has been a =
change.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Bernard Hoggins<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, May 29, =
2010 6:37
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Silvered/True
Silvered Armour prices.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
 <tr>
  <td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
  style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Just to toss a few numbers into the =
hat.<br>
  <br>
  Bronze Improved Plate (unranked) =3D 6 point. 7 Weight factor, -3 AG, =
2850sp<br>
  Leather (Rk 4) =3D 5 point. &nbsp;3 weight factor, -1 AG,&nbsp; =
250sp.<br>
  <br>
  So for 10 times the price, more than double the weight factor, you get =
1 more
  point of protection.<br>
  <br>
  Bronze Improved Plate (Rk 8) =3D 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG, =
25650sp<br>
  <br>
  Better protection, but your paying a huge hunk load of cash for =
it.&nbsp; In
  terms of the massive amount of AG loss your probably taking as a =
low/medium
  jumping into Improved plate without ag/weight improvement, I suspect =
most
  would require more than a 1 point improvement to justify this.<br>
  <br>
  Silvered (Rk 0) improved plate.&nbsp; 8 point, 7 weight factor, -3 AG,
  12850(proposed), 32850sp(current), -10% cast chance to spells.<br>
  <br>
  Under current pricing, it costs about 7000 more, and is inferior to =
the
  higher ranked bronzed plate.&nbsp; Under proposed pricing, it lands =
about in
  the middle of the options in terms of price, yet due to the -10% cast =
chance,
  is inferior to the Rk 8 bronzed plate.<br>
  <br>
  Just looking at these options, it seems to land in nicely as an option =
for
  characters, as it creates questions on if they think they can afford =
-10%
  cast chance for a tanking armour, or if they need to spend that extra =
money
  on bronzed armour.<br>
  As a GM if I give out the armours between leather &amp; improved plate =
in
  silvered, such as partial plate, it creates even more questions, yet =
doesn't
  create a massive imbalance in the loot of the party if 2 or 3 suits =
are
  captured from the opposition.<br>
  <br>
  Using these same figures.<br>
  <br>
  Rk 8 True Silvered Improved plate.&nbsp; 10 points, 7 weight, -3 AG,
  75650sp(proposed), 200650sp(current).<br>
  <br>
  Under the current rules, this means this suit of improved plate, who's =
only
  benefit is no cast penalty, comes out at about double what Isel'Eth =
paid for
  a suit of 10 point mage plate.&nbsp; Without knowing the exact stats =
of said
  mage plate it's difficult to compare directly.<br>
  <br>
  Under the proposal, it comes out about 25k cheaper, not quite at the =
100k
  mark, but if the mage plate purchased was lighter, or lower AG penalty =
than
  improved plate, it works out about right.<br>
  <br>
  <br>
  Obviously these are only selective figures using Improved Plate, but =
the
  maths seems to work out and semi-agree with what a lot of the =
responses have
  been saying.&nbsp; If it turns out to not be right, we can always =
adjust it
  again in a few years time, and given how many suits of unusual mage =
plate are
  out there currently, a slight error here doesn't seem likely to break =
the
  game.<br>
  <br>
  To stop the endless fiddling with numbers, which even I'm prone to do, =
does
  anyone have serious objections to moving forward with this and putting =
it to
  a vote at the Guild Meeting to get a formal headcount on where we are =
with
  happiness.<br>
  <br>
  <br>
  From Bernard Hoggins<br>
  nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br>
  <br>
  --- On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sat, 29/5/10, Ian Wood =
<i><span
  =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>&lt;dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz&gt;</span></i></span=
></b>
  wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
  face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
  From: Ian Wood &lt;dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz&gt;<br>
  Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.<br>
  To: <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
  Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
  <div id=3Dyiv386163157>
  <div>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Hi Helen,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>I got lost a little in the middle there, but I think it =
caught up
  by the end.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>I think we are quibbling over where to set the prices. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Price control is only one aspect =
however.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>I want the prices to be higher that you =
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>1. I want to experience the following in =
DQ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <ol start=3D1 type=3Da>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>mage armour is =
available to
       medium rank guild members</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>silvered and =
true-silvered
       armour is relatively rare (100s in western =
Alusia)</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>medium level mages =
are not
       penalized in combat.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
  </ol>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>2. Cheap &#8220;Mage plate&#8221; already exists in the =
rules.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <ol start=3D1 type=3Da>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bronze armour is =
mage
       friendly, using the current rules, and fulfills all of your =
arguments
       and mine.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A medium level mage =
can wear
       bronze improved plate, and augment their statistics with waters =
of
       strength, armour of earth, herbalist potion for AG or spend EP to =
raise
       their statistics.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>After all they want =
the best
       of both worlds so they pay a little more for =
it.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
   <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
       auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
       style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Cost is 2850 sp for =
the
       armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per =
combat.</span></font><o:p></o:p></li>
  </ol>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage plate from Elfheim for =
over
  100,000 sp for herself. She now has better options using magical =
items.<br>
  Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same =
investment
  as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be able =
to pay
  that.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Make it too low and every baron will wear it, and his =
combat
  mages will wear silvered.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>4. GMs would not pump up the damage if everyone did not =
keep
  increasing the armour protection. PCs have 15 or more protection. D+3 =
is not
  going to do anything, and players get upset if every hit is an =
endurance.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>5. Changing the prices does not alter the fact that medium =
level
  mages cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour table needs to =
be
  changed as well, or just stick with =
bronze.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Please refer to my earlier post for comments on Bronze, =
changing
  the armour table, and my preferred =
pricing.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Ian</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
  </div>
  </div>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 May 2010 21:30:19 +1200
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
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I may well have an objection.
What, in a nutshell and devoid of all the blather, are you suggesting to be
put to a vote?

On 29 May 2010 18:36, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>   To stop the endless fiddling with numbers, which even I'm prone to do,
> does anyone have serious objections to moving forward with this and putti=
ng
> it to a vote at the Guild Meeting to get a formal headcount on where we a=
re
> with happiness.
>
>
> From Bernard Hoggins
> nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
>
> --- On *Sat, 29/5/10, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz>
>
> Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM
>
>
>  Hi Helen,
>
>
>
> I got lost a little in the middle there, but I think it caught up by the
> end.
>
> I think we are quibbling over where to set the prices.
>
> Price control is only one aspect however.
>
>
>
> I want the prices to be higher that you wrote:
>
>
>
> 1. I want to experience the following in DQ
>
>    1. mage armour is available to medium rank guild members
>    2. silvered and true-silvered armour is relatively rare (100s in
>    western Alusia)
>    3. medium level mages are not penalized in combat.
>
>
>
> 2. Cheap =93Mage plate=94 already exists in the rules.
>
>    1. Bronze armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, and
>    fulfills all of your arguments and mine.
>    2. A medium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment
>    their statistics with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist p=
otion
>    for AG or spend EP to raise their statistics.
>    3. After all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little
>    more for it.
>    4. Cost is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per
>    combat.
>
>
>
> 3. Isil Eth bought 10 point mage plate from Elfheim for over 100,000 sp f=
or
> herself. She now has better options using magical items.
> Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same
> investment as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should b=
e
> able to pay that.
>
> Make it too low and every baron will wear it, and his combat mages will
> wear silvered.
>
>
>
> 4. GMs would not pump up the damage if everyone did not keep increasing t=
he
> armour protection. PCs have 15 or more protection. D+3 is not going to do
> anything, and players get upset if every hit is an endurance.
>
>
>
> 5. Changing the prices does not alter the fact that medium level mages
> cannot afford the -10 to cast chance. The armour table needs to be change=
d
> as well, or just stick with bronze.
>
>
>
> Please refer to my earlier post for comments on Bronze, changing the armo=
ur
> table, and my preferred pricing.
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
>
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I may=
 well have an objection.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">What, in a nutshell and devoid of all the=
 blather, are you suggesting to be put to=A0a vote?<br></font><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 May 2010 18:36, Bernard Hoggins <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">To stop the endless fiddling with numbers, which even I&=
#39;m prone to do, does anyone have serious objections to moving forward wi=
th this and putting it to a vote at the Guild Meeting to get a formal headc=
ount on where we are with happiness.<br>
<br><br>From Bernard Hoggins<br><a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk" tar=
get=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a><br><br>--- On <b>Sat, 29/5/10, Ian =
Wood <i>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">dawnh=
aven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Ian Wood &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xt=
ra.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>&gt;=20
<div class=3D"im"><br>Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour price=
s.<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org=
.nz</a><br></div>Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 4:42 PM=20
<div class=3D"im"><br><br>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Helen,</span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I got lost a li=
ttle in the middle there, but I think it caught up by the end.</span></font=
></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think we are =
quibbling over where to set the prices. </span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Price control i=
s only one aspect however.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I want the pric=
es to be higher that you wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">1. I want to ex=
perience the following in DQ</span></font></p>
<ol style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0cm" type=3D"a">
<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">mage =
armour is available to medium rank guild members</span></font></li>
<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">silve=
red and true-silvered armour is relatively rare (100s in western Alusia)</s=
pan></font></li>

<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">mediu=
m level mages are not penalized in combat.</span></font></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">2. Cheap =93Mag=
e plate=94 already exists in the rules.</span></font></p>
<ol style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 0cm" type=3D"a">
<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Bronz=
e armour is mage friendly, using the current rules, and fulfills all of you=
r arguments and mine.</span></font></li>

<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">A med=
ium level mage can wear bronze improved plate, and augment their statistics=
 with waters of strength, armour of earth, herbalist potion for AG or spend=
 EP to raise their statistics.</span></font></li>

<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">After=
 all they want the best of both worlds so they pay a little more for it.</s=
pan></font></li>

<li style=3D"COLOR: navy" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"=
2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cost =
is 2850 sp for the armour + 5,000s ep + some 100s sp per combat.</span></fo=
nt></li>
</ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3. Isil Eth bou=
ght 10 point mage plate from Elfheim for over 100,000 sp for herself. She n=
ow has better options using magical items.<br>
Which is why I think +100k is ok for true silvered: it is the same investme=
nt as learning the Investment Ritual and a high level PC should be able to =
pay that.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Make it too low=
 and every baron will wear it, and his combat mages will wear silvered.</sp=
an></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">4. GMs would no=
t pump up the damage if everyone did not keep increasing the armour protect=
ion. PCs have 15 or more protection. D+3 is not going to do anything, and p=
layers get upset if every hit is an endurance.</span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">5. Changing the=
 prices does not alter the fact that medium level mages cannot afford the -=
10 to cast chance. The armour table needs to be changed as well, or just st=
ick with bronze.</span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Please refer to=
 my earlier post for comments on Bronze, changing the armour table, and my =
preferred pricing.</span></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ian</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p></div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>=A0</blo=
ckquote></div>
<br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromBernard Hoggins
DateSat, 29 May 2010 09:40:52 +0000 (GMT)
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To put in clear english.

That Silvered armour price change from +30,000sp to +10,000sp.
That True Silvered armour price change from +180,000sp to +50,000sp.

For aforementioned reasoning in all the mass of mails.

However Ian's objection on it having a change on rarity is a serious object=
ion, more serious than a small difference in preferred price.=A0 If anyone =
else wants more talk on this before it goes to a vote, it can wait at that =
point to let the discussion happen.

From Bernard Hoggins
=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

--- On Sat, 29/5/10, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:30 PM

I may well have an objection.=0AWhat, in a nutshell and devoid of all the b=
lather, are you suggesting to be put to=A0a vote?
=0A=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">To put in clear english.<br><br>That Silvered=
 armour price change from +30,000sp to +10,000sp.<br>That True Silvered arm=
our price change from +180,000sp to +50,000sp.<br><br>For aforementioned re=
asoning in all the mass of mails.<br><br>However Ian's objection on it havi=
ng a change on rarity is a serious objection, more serious than a small dif=
ference in preferred price.&nbsp; If anyone else wants more talk on this be=
fore it goes to a vote, it can wait at that point to let the discussion hap=
pen.<br><br>From Bernard Hoggins<br>=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br><br>--- On <=
b>Sat, 29/5/10, Jim Arona <i>&lt;jim.arona@gmail.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: =
5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Jim Arona &lt;jim.arona@gmail.com&gt;<br=
>Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.<br>To: dq@dq.sf.or=
g.nz<br>Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:30 PM<br><br><div id=3D"yiv4560=
56274"><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font><font face=3D"georgia,serif=
">I may well have an objection.</font></div>=0A<div><font face=3D"georgia,s=
erif">What, in a nutshell and devoid of all the blather, are you suggesting=
 to be put to&nbsp;a vote?</font><br>=0A</div></div></blockquote></td></tr>=
</table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      &nbsp;
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SubjectRe: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 May 2010 21:44:44 +1200
--00c09f93de0c372f050487b87939
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I object to it, as well, and for pretty much the same reason.

On 29 May 2010 21:40, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>   To put in clear english.
>
> That Silvered armour price change from +30,000sp to +10,000sp.
> That True Silvered armour price change from +180,000sp to +50,000sp.
>
> For aforementioned reasoning in all the mass of mails.
>
> However Ian's objection on it having a change on rarity is a serious
> objection, more serious than a small difference in preferred price.  If
> anyone else wants more talk on this before it goes to a vote, it can wait at
> that point to let the discussion happen.
>
>
> From Bernard Hoggins
> nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
>
> --- On *Sat, 29/5/10, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour prices.
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:30 PM
>
>
>  I may well have an objection.
> What, in a nutshell and devoid of all the blather, are you suggesting to be
> put to a vote?
>
>
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">I object to it, as well, and for pretty much t=
he same reason.<br></font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 May 2010 21:40, Bernard Hoggins <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">To put in clear english.<br><br>That Silvered armour pri=
ce change from +30,000sp to +10,000sp.<br>That True Silvered armour price c=
hange from +180,000sp to +50,000sp.<br><br>For aforementioned reasoning in =
all the mass of mails.<br>
<br>However Ian&#39;s objection on it having a change on rarity is a seriou=
s objection, more serious than a small difference in preferred price.=A0 If=
 anyone else wants more talk on this before it goes to a vote, it can wait =
at that point to let the discussion happen.=20
<div class=3D"im"><br><br>From Bernard Hoggins<br><a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0a=
d@yahoo.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a><br><br></div>--- =
On <b>Sat, 29/5/10, Jim Arona <i>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Jim Arona &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;=20
<div class=3D"im"><br>Subject: Re: [dq] Silvered/True Silvered Armour price=
s.<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org=
.nz</a><br></div>Received: Saturday, 29 May, 2010, 9:30 PM=20
<div class=3D"im"><br><br>
<div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I may=
 well have an objection.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">What, in a nutshell and devoid of all the=
 blather, are you suggesting to be put to=A0a vote?</font><br></div></div><=
/div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>=A0</blockquote></div><br>

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