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Unearthly desires? :)

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 10:46 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

> That woman has unnatural lusts.
>
> On 13 June 2010 22:33, Jonathan Bean <jonobean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Jim Jim, no point in hiding it any more. Its clear to me that Jim,
>> Looooves Lath with her Air Elemental :-)
>>
>>
>>
PS: Struan's maths does seem to point to both an old error and the logical
solution.

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Unearthly desires? :)<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jun 13, 201=
0 at 10:46 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@=
gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<font face=3D"georgia,serif">That woman has unnatural lusts.<br></font><div=
><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 13 June 2010 22:33, Jonathan Bean <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobe=
an@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>Jim Jim, no point in hiding it=A0any more.=A0Its clear to me that Jim,=
 Looooves Lath with her Air Elemental :-)</div></div>
<div><br></div><br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br>PS:=
 Struan&#39;s maths does seem to point to both an old error and the logical=
=20
solution. </div></div>

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For those whose eyes are growing old gracefully with them, I was thinking of
formatting a rulebook with 10pt rather than 8pt font. If nothing else,
people could print a copy of their own college and maybe some combat tables.
I suspect this might help lookup things up under electric light late at
night.

Let me know [off-list] if you are keen, and if I get more than a couple of
people, I'll put something together. If 10pt is still too small, let me know
what works for you.

Andrew


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Any thoughts on reducing the number of columns? It is pretty tight as it is,
and with larger print it might make it a bit more readable.



On 14 June 2010 09:12, Andrew Withy <awithy@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> For those whose eyes are growing old gracefully with them, I was thinking
> of
> formatting a rulebook with 10pt rather than 8pt font. If nothing else,
> people could print a copy of their own college and maybe some combat
> tables.
> I suspect this might help lookup things up under electric light late at
> night.
>
> Let me know [off-list] if you are keen, and if I get more than a couple of
> people, I'll put something together. If 10pt is still too small, let me
> know
> what works for you.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div>Any thoughts on reducing the number of columns? It is pretty tight as =
it is, and with larger print it might make it a bit more readable.</div>
<div><br><br>=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 09:12, Andrew Withy <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:awithy@ihug.co.nz">awithy@ihug.co.nz</a>&gt;</s=
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">For those whose eyes are growing=
 old gracefully with them, I was thinking of<br>formatting a rulebook with =
10pt rather than 8pt font. If nothing else,<br>

people could print a copy of their own college and maybe some combat tables=
.<br>I suspect this might help lookup things up under electric light late a=
t<br>night.<br><br>Let me know [off-list] if you are keen, and if I get mor=
e than a couple of<br>

people, I&#39;ll put something together. If 10pt is still too small, let me=
 know<br>what works for you.<br><br>Andrew<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe not=
ify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-announce-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-announce-=
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</blockquote></div><br>

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I've been thinking about this and I think I may have a solution to the
problem Bernard points out with Silvered & TS armours i.e. that they exceed
the values of the recommended treasure values making them too valuable for
GMs to give out as treasure; That doesn't involve changing  the whole of
these types of armours, and should not affect the rarity of these armours in
the game world.

We as Bernard suggests drop the cost of Silvered armour from +30,000sp
to.... I'd like to see +15-20,000sp

We change the value of True Silver armour to +40-50,000sp BUT make its
availability Quest (like we do for some spells/rituals)... just as Mithril
or Dragon skin is.

 

This means GMs can give out these armourers as alternates to magical metal
armours, dragon skin type leathers, or mithril without turning the rules on
treasure values into a total waste of ink. 

TS Armour remains as rare as any of the other Quest armours.

Silvered and bronze Armours  are able to be bought by PCs; Bronze caster
plate will be better but heavier than leather or at a greater cost you can
have even more Protection with silvered but lose some off your cast chance.

Mithril, dragon etc still hold their place as top armours due to being
lighter, stealthier etc.

 

To do this we would only need to make changes to the Notes for table 56.3
as this is the only place Armour cost for Silver and TS are given,  and
because the weapon costs remain the same, we need not change any of the
other places the costs of Silvered and TS items are mentioned in the rule
book.

 

The changed table would read. 

1.       Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection. Permits magic at no
modification to Base Chance. - cost is the same as for iron.

2.       Silvered Armour has the same protection. Permits magic at -10% to
Base Chance. - cost is +20,000sp. (or whatever value we settle on)

3.       True-silvered Armour has the same protection.  Permits magic at no
modification to Base Chance. - availability Quest however for GM valuation
purposes cost is +50,000sp. (or whatever value we settle on)

 

 

 

Helen

 

 

 

 

 

 


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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve been thinking about this and I think I may =
have a
solution to the problem Bernard points out with Silvered &amp; TS =
armours i.e.
that they exceed the values of the recommended treasure values making =
them too
valuable for GMs to give out as treasure; That doesn&#8217;t involve =
changing
&nbsp;the whole of these types of armours, and should not affect the =
rarity of
these armours in the game world.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We as Bernard suggests drop the cost of Silvered armour =
from
+30,000sp to.... I&#8217;d like to see =
+15-20,000sp<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>We change the value of True Silver armour to +40-50,000sp =
BUT
make its availability Quest (like we do for some spells/rituals)... just =
as
Mithril or Dragon skin is.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This means GMs can give out these armourers as alternates =
to
magical metal armours, dragon skin type leathers, or mithril without =
turning
the rules on treasure values into a total waste of ink. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>TS Armour remains as rare as any of the other Quest =
armours.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Silvered and bronze Armours&nbsp; are able to be bought =
by PCs;
Bronze caster plate will be better but heavier than leather or at a =
greater
cost you can have even more Protection with silvered but lose some off =
your
cast chance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Mithril, dragon etc still hold their place as top armours =
due to
being lighter, stealthier etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>To do this we would only need to make changes to the =
Notes for
table 56.3&nbsp; as this is the only place Armour cost for Silver and TS =
are
given,&nbsp; and&nbsp; because the weapon costs remain the same, we need =
not
change any of the other places the costs of Silvered and TS items are =
mentioned
in the rule book.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The changed table would read. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bronze Armour has 2 points less protection. Permits magic =
at no
modification to Base Chance. &#8211; cost is the same as for =
iron.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Silvered Armour has the same protection. Permits magic at =
-10%
to Base Chance. - cost is +20,000sp. </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C0504D'>(or whatever value we =
settle
on)</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><span
style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New =
Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>True-silvered Armour has the same protection. =
&nbsp;Permits
magic at no modification to Base Chance. &#8211; availability Quest =
however for
GM valuation purposes cost is +50,000sp.</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C0504D'> (or whatever value we =
settle
on)</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Helen<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoListParagraph><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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If the prime issue is that GMs feel they can't give out Silvered os TS armour as treasure
because it costs too much then another way of looking at this is the difference between Cost
and Guild Valuation.

We make up a Guild Valuation for items which represents its value to guild members.

This doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with its cost to make or value to some
other market.

Plate Armour is expensive to make.  Silvered and true Silvered Armour is heinously expensive
to make.  But its value to guild members is no more than its value as armour or its value when
re-smelted as ingots/coin.

So a suit of Rk10 true-silvered improved plate might cost hundreds of thousands to have made,
but the guild looks at it and assesses: 9 AP, -2 AG, 42 lbs, mage castable = 15,000sp value to
members
Or 20,000sp in raw materials after re-smelting costs and wastage.
Guild Valuation is 20,000sp


Cheers, Stephen.


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But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
later on the scene.

On 14 June 2010 08:44, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>>
>>>
> PS: Struan's maths does seem to point to both an old error and the logical
> solution.
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">But sadly inaccurate. The original equation fo=
r summoning Air, Fire and Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT an=
d EN. For Earth Elementals, it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription err=
or when the Fire College was revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + =
5/Rank, and this was either not noticed or not cared about because you woul=
d have to be a moron to prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice element=
als arrived somewhat later on the scene.<br>
</font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 08:44, Martin Dickson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>=A0</div><br></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div>
<div><br>PS: Struan&#39;s maths does seem to point to both an old error and=
 the logical solution. </div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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On 14/06/2010 10:24 a.m., Neil Davies wrote:
> Any thoughts on reducing the number of columns? It is pretty tight as 
> it is, and with larger print it might make it a bit more readable.
>
Two columns perhaps if you're gonig to increase the font size.  If you 
go to one, there's going to ne too much white-space - especially in spells.

Just my opinion


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We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by
different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only
method of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of
short messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before
the advent of post-it notes).

If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that
they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 totals
up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?

But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a great
matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments about the
intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant to go to
Rank 50. :)


On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
> revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
> not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
> prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
> later on the scene.
>

--00c09f89962c0f2a990488f2f0be
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We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by =
different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only met=
hod of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of sho=
rt messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before the =
advent of post-it notes).<br>
<br>If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful th=
at they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 tot=
als up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n&#39=
;est pas?<br>
<br>But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a =
great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments abo=
ut the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant to=
 go to Rank 50. :)<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Ar=
ona <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<font face=3D"georgia,serif">But sadly inaccurate. The original equation fo=
r summoning Air, Fire and Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT an=
d EN. For Earth Elementals, it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription err=
or when the Fire College was revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + =
5/Rank, and this was either not noticed or not cared about because you woul=
d have to be a moron to prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice element=
als arrived somewhat later on the scene.</font><br>
</blockquote></div>

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I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in the
bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has an EN
higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply pointing out
where the transcription error lay.
I don't care what the original designers intended, although I would like to
know what it was they were smoking when they were doing this designing. The
concern is that I can place an NPC in the world with the equivalent
Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4 years of training time, who can
then generate a monster with about 330 combined EN & FT. Which also, as I
read further, cannot be banished in the normal way.
If I allow this rule in my game, and assuming sensible,
predictable advancement by npcs, then the world will be littered with the
shattered bodies of adventurers.
If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could create
really powerful elementals, I really couldn't give a rat's arse. But, this
is a baseline change which will have an effect on the environment in which
games are set.

On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

> We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by
> different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only
> method of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of
> short messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before
> the advent of post-it notes).
>
> If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that
> they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 totals
> up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?
>
> But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a
> great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments
> about the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant
> to go to Rank 50. :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
>> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
>> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
>> revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
>> not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
>> prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
>> later on the scene.
>>
>

--000feaef38560713a40488f33b7c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I have no issue with the equations. I am =
talking about the entry in the bestiary, where it is now possible to have a=
n elemental which has an EN higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. =
I was simply pointing out where the transcription error lay.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I don&#39;t care what the original design=
ers intended, although I would like to know what it was they were smoking w=
hen they were doing this designing. The concern is that I can place an NPC =
in the world with the equivalent Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4=
 years of training time,=A0who can then generate=A0a monster with about 330=
 combined EN &amp; FT. Which also, as I read further, cannot be banished in=
 the normal way. </font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">If I allow this rule in my game, and assu=
ming sensible, predictable=A0advancement by npcs, then the world will be li=
ttered with the shattered bodies of adventurers.=A0</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritua=
l so that they could create really powerful elementals, I=A0really couldn&#=
39;t give a rat&#39;s arse.=A0But, this is a baseline change which will hav=
e an effect on the environment in which games are set. =A0<br>
</font><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">We know that the original rules =
were a) written as sections, b) written by different authors, and c) coordi=
nated in a way that suggests their only method of communication was either =
through lawyers or the exclusive use of short messages left attached to fri=
dge magnets (this being shortly before the advent of post-it notes).<br>
<br>If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful th=
at they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 tot=
als up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n&#39=
;est pas?<br>
<br>But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a =
great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments abo=
ut the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant to=
 go to Rank 50. :)=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><font face=3D"georgi=
a,serif">But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fir=
e and Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elem=
entals, it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire Col=
lege was revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was=
 either not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron=
 to prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat=
 later on the scene.</font><br>
</blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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--0016e64654d28a8bf10488f34b1d
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I don't mind what the GM's decide to do or change I guess, but their has
been a difference between them all (other than the name and element) for 10+
years. I am surprised that this comes as a shock to anyone.

As far as the issue of elementals becoming in effect reuseable invested
items able to be used at range, this seems to fix it.

Thanks for the effort Bernard. On a personal note I now have to downside my
Air Elemental model.

Kind regards,
Jono


On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

> We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by
> different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only
> method of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of
> short messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before
> the advent of post-it notes).
>
> If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that
> they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 totals
> up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?
>
> But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a
> great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments
> about the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant
> to go to Rank 50. :)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
>> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
>> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
>> revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
>> not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
>> prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
>> later on the scene.
>>
>


-- 
Kind regards,

Jonathan Bean
H: +64 9 828 2959
M: +64 21 917 173
G: jonobean@gmail.com

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<div><br></div>I don&#39;t mind what the GM&#39;s decide to do or change I =
guess, but their has been a difference between them all (other than the nam=
e and element) for 10+ years. I am surprised that this comes as a shock to =
anyone.<div>
<br></div><div>As far as the issue of elementals becoming in effect reuseab=
le invested items able to be used at range, this seems to fix it.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Thanks for the effort Bernard.=A0On a personal note I now h=
ave to downside my Air Elemental model.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div>Jono</div><div><br><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">We know that the original rules were a) wri=
tten as sections, b) written by different authors, and c) coordinated in a =
way that suggests their only method of communication was either through law=
yers or the exclusive use of short messages left attached to fridge magnets=
 (this being shortly before the advent of post-it notes).<br>

<br>If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful th=
at they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 tot=
als up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n&#39=
;est pas?<br>

<br>But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a =
great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments abo=
ut the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant to=
 go to Rank 50. :)<div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Ar=
ona <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
, 204, 204);padding-left:1ex">

<font face=3D"georgia,serif">But sadly inaccurate. The original equation fo=
r summoning Air, Fire and Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT an=
d EN. For Earth Elementals, it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription err=
or when the Fire College was revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + =
5/Rank, and this was either not noticed or not cared about because you woul=
d have to be a moron to prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice element=
als arrived somewhat later on the scene.</font><br>

</blockquote></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Kind regard=
s,<br><br>Jonathan Bean<br>H: +64 9 828 2959<br>M: +64 21 917 173<br>G: <a =
href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a><br>
</div>

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I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
For non-Namers, there are two differences.

   1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
   Knowledge spells
   2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of
   knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.

For Namers, the differences are
They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
that affect branches:

   1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
   will have 8 normal counterspells.
   2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
   knowledge is 10+1/Rank.

 Discuss.

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I propose a change to the current counter=
spell conventions.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">For non-Namers, there are two differences=
. </font></div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">
<ol>
<li>Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Knowl=
edge spells</li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of k=
nowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>For Namers, the differences are</div>
<div>They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have countersp=
ells that affect branches:</div>
<ol>
<li>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they wil=
l have 8 normal=A0counterspells. </li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of kn=
owledge is 10+1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>=A0Discuss.</div></font>

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Sorry,

I was reading the wrong section for errors and also assuming the
Creature statistics section to take precedence over the explanatory
notes.

Two changes to the Initial Notes are probably required to remove ambiguity:
a) Add " Neither statistic may be greater than the maximum listed in
the specific Elemental's Bestiary entry." after "An Elementals Fatigue
& Endurance from summoning are to be split approximately to the
ratio's given in the bestiary, of 2 Endurance:3 Fatigue."
b) Change the last two points ("A Spell Summoned Elemental will
immediately be banished should it loose contact with its Element." and
"A Ritually summoned Elemental will not be banished immediately, but
will instead suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will
then be Banished.") to read "When an Summoned Elemental looses contact
with it's element it will be Banished. If Summoned by a Spell this
banishment will happen immediately, but if Summoned by a Ritual it
will suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will then be
Banished"

TTFN, Struan.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 13:15, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in the
> bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has an EN
> higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply pointing out
> where the transcription error lay.
> I don't care what the original designers intended, although I would like to
> know what it was they were smoking when they were doing this designing. The
> concern is that I can place an NPC in the world with the equivalent
> Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4 years of training time, who can
> then generate a monster with about 330 combined EN & FT. Which also, as I
> read further, cannot be banished in the normal way.
> If I allow this rule in my game, and assuming sensible,
> predictable advancement by npcs, then the world will be littered with the
> shattered bodies of adventurers.
> If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could create
> really powerful elementals, I really couldn't give a rat's arse. But, this
> is a baseline change which will have an effect on the environment in which
> games are set.
>
> On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by
>> different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only
>> method of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of
>> short messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before
>> the advent of post-it notes).
>>
>> If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that
>> they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 totals
>> up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?
>>
>> But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a
>> great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments
>> about the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant
>> to go to Rank 50. :)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
>>> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
>>> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
>>> revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
>>> not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
>>> prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
>>> later on the scene.
>
>


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When an Summoned Elemental looses contact with it's element it will be Banished.

Mmmm So

An earth elemental is an Olympic walker, ok
An air elemental must be in contact with air
A water elemental must be in a river, pond, sea or lake of some sort?  (Frozen? Steam?)
An ice elemental must be in contact with ice.  Like the artic or a mountain top or someone's wall of ice that fell over?

A fire elemental must be in contact with????  A barbeque?  Bonfire, stream of lava, carelessly discarded cigar?  Does not seem particularly mobile. (perhaps it should not be)


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Struan Judd
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 1:32 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Elementals as per new Rulebook

Sorry,

I was reading the wrong section for errors and also assuming the Creature statistics section to take precedence over the explanatory notes.

Two changes to the Initial Notes are probably required to remove ambiguity:
a) Add " Neither statistic may be greater than the maximum listed in the specific Elemental's Bestiary entry." after "An Elementals Fatigue & Endurance from summoning are to be split approximately to the ratio's given in the bestiary, of 2 Endurance:3 Fatigue."
b) Change the last two points ("A Spell Summoned Elemental will immediately be banished should it loose contact with its Element." and "A Ritually summoned Elemental will not be banished immediately, but will instead suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will then be Banished.") to read "When an Summoned Elemental looses contact with it's element it will be Banished. If Summoned by a Spell this banishment will happen immediately, but if Summoned by a Ritual it will suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will then be Banished"

TTFN, Struan.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 13:15, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in 
> the bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has 
> an EN higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply 
> pointing out where the transcription error lay.
> I don't care what the original designers intended, although I would 
> like to know what it was they were smoking when they were doing this 
> designing. The concern is that I can place an NPC in the world with 
> the equivalent Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4 years of 
> training time, who can then generate a monster with about 330 combined 
> EN & FT. Which also, as I read further, cannot be banished in the normal way.
> If I allow this rule in my game, and assuming sensible, predictable 
> advancement by npcs, then the world will be littered with the 
> shattered bodies of adventurers.
> If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could 
> create really powerful elementals, I really couldn't give a rat's 
> arse. But, this is a baseline change which will have an effect on the 
> environment in which games are set.
>
> On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) 
>> written by different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that 
>> suggests their only method of communication was either through 
>> lawyers or the exclusive use of short messages left attached to 
>> fridge magnets (this being shortly before the advent of post-it notes).
>>
>> If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful 
>> that they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 
>> 15+6 totals up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?
>>
>> But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not 
>> a great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated 
>> arguments about the intent of the designers... and whether geas was 
>> ever really meant to go to Rank 50. :)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire 
>>> and Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth 
>>> Elementals, it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when 
>>> the Fire College was revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 
>>> 5/Rank, and this was either not noticed or not cared about because 
>>> you would have to be a moron to prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser 
>>> Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat later on the scene.
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Note that I haven't updated the primary Elementals' entries on the Wiki.

I took everything above 'Common Characteristics' on the Proposals page to be introduction and explanation, and applied only the parts below that point to the revised Bestiary entries. Therefore the proposal voted in doesn't change either the College or Bestiary values for EN/FT. The Intro points out the existing inconsistency.

I agree with Struan's reading of the use of Namer Banishment on Ritually Summoned Elementals (that the intent is that the non-instant departure statement ONLY applies to Elementals that have lost contact with their element).
If people indicate their agreement that this is sensible/what was voted in I'm happy to produce revised PDFs that make this point clear (unfortunate page break didn't help!) this evening (I don't have the modified Word .doc to hand).

Cheers
Errol


-----Original Message-----
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Struan Judd
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 1:32 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Elementals as per new Rulebook

Sorry,

I was reading the wrong section for errors and also assuming the
Creature statistics section to take precedence over the explanatory
notes.

Two changes to the Initial Notes are probably required to remove ambiguity:
a) Add " Neither statistic may be greater than the maximum listed in
the specific Elemental's Bestiary entry." after "An Elementals Fatigue
& Endurance from summoning are to be split approximately to the
ratio's given in the bestiary, of 2 Endurance:3 Fatigue."
b) Change the last two points ("A Spell Summoned Elemental will
immediately be banished should it loose contact with its Element." and
"A Ritually summoned Elemental will not be banished immediately, but
will instead suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will
then be Banished.") to read "When an Summoned Elemental looses contact
with it's element it will be Banished. If Summoned by a Spell this
banishment will happen immediately, but if Summoned by a Ritual it
will suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will then be
Banished"

TTFN, Struan.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 13:15, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in the
> bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has an EN
> higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply pointing out
> where the transcription error lay.
> I don't care what the original designers intended, although I would like to
> know what it was they were smoking when they were doing this designing. The
> concern is that I can place an NPC in the world with the equivalent
> Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4 years of training time, who can
> then generate a monster with about 330 combined EN & FT. Which also, as I
> read further, cannot be banished in the normal way.
> If I allow this rule in my game, and assuming sensible,
> predictable advancement by npcs, then the world will be littered with the
> shattered bodies of adventurers.
> If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could create
> really powerful elementals, I really couldn't give a rat's arse. But, this
> is a baseline change which will have an effect on the environment in which
> games are set.
>
> On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> We know that the original rules were a) written as sections, b) written by
>> different authors, and c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only
>> method of communication was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of
>> short messages left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before
>> the advent of post-it notes).
>>
>> If college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that
>> they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 15+6 totals
>> up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sensible option, n'est pas?
>>
>> But... meh... in the greater scheme of things though Jim this is not a
>> great matter... and I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments
>> about the intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant
>> to go to Rank 50. :)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation for summoning Air, Fire and
>>> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,
>>> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was
>>> revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either
>>> not noticed or not cared about because you would have to be a moron to
>>> prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat
>>> later on the scene.
>
>


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Always keen on EP sinks. :)

I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.
(Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).

One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
elements...

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>
>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>    Knowledge spells
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
>    of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>
> For Namers, the differences are
> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
> that affect branches:
>
>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
>    will have 8 normal counterspells.
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
>    knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>
>  Discuss.
>

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Always keen on EP sinks. :)<br><br>I&#39;d be keen to see weaker but rankab=
le OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.=A0 (Whose CS could be gruntier if no=
thing else).<br><br>One note though... Celestial is elemental isn&#39;t it?=
=A0 Light and Dark are elements...<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I propose a change to the current counter=
spell conventions.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">For non-Namers, there are two differences=
. </font></div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">
<ol>
<li>Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Knowl=
edge spells</li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of k=
nowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>For Namers, the differences are</div>
<div>They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have countersp=
ells that affect branches:</div>
<ol>
<li>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they wil=
l have 8 normal=A0counterspells. </li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of kn=
owledge is 10+1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>=A0Discuss.</div></font>
</blockquote></div><br>

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In what way are do you think counterspells broken?  Your proposal is very
interesting, but I can't think of any huge reason to do this.  

 

Regards

Rosemary

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 1:25 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal

 

I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.

For non-Namers, there are two differences. 

1.	Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
Knowledge spells
2.	The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.

For Namers, the differences are

They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
that affect branches:

1.	Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
will have 8 normal counterspells. 
2.	The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
knowledge is 10+1/Rank.

Discuss.


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>In what way are do you think =
counterspells
broken?&nbsp; Your proposal is very interesting, but I can&#8217;t think =
of any huge
reason to do this.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rosemary<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</spa=
n></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 14 June =
2010 1:25
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Counterspell
proposal</span></font><span lang=3DEN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I propose a change to the current counterspell
conventions.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>For non-Namers, there are two differences. =
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Out of college counterspells are =
rankable as
     if they were Special Knowledge spells<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with =
respect to
     the College and body of knowledge is 10 =
+1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>For Namers, the differences =
are<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>They no longer have college counterspells, instead =
they
have counterspells that affect branches:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and =
Entity.
     This means that they will have 8 normal&nbsp;counterspells. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with =
respect to
     the Branch and body of knowledge is =
10+1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>Discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

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Exact match of my intent as writer if that helps clarify.
The note about the rituals not matching was so people didn't get confused a=
bout things.
The not instant banishment was intended for the situations like a water ele=
mental washing itself up onto the beach for a few pulses (so you can't stan=
d there and thumb your nose at it all day).=A0 Banishment spell was still i=
ntended to function as per normal.

From Bernard Hoggins
=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

--- On Mon, 14/6/10, Errol Cavit <Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com> wrote:

From: Errol Cavit <Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com>
Subject: Re: [dq] Elementals as per Gods' Vote
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Received: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 2:17 PM

Note that I haven't updated the primary Elementals' entries on the Wiki.

I took everything above 'Common Characteristics' on the Proposals page to b=
e introduction and explanation, and applied only the parts below that point=
 to the revised Bestiary entries. Therefore the proposal voted in doesn't c=
hange either the College or Bestiary values for EN/FT. The Intro points out=
 the existing inconsistency.

I agree with Struan's reading of the use of Namer Banishment on Ritually Su=
mmoned Elementals (that the intent is that the non-instant departure statem=
ent ONLY applies to Elementals that have lost contact with their element).
If people indicate their agreement that this is sensible/what was voted in =
I'm happy to produce revised PDFs that make this point clear (unfortunate p=
age break didn't help!) this evening (I don't have the modified Word .doc t=
o hand).

Cheers
Errol
=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">Exact match of my intent as writer if that he=
lps clarify.<br>The note about the rituals not matching was so people didn'=
t get confused about things.<br>The not instant banishment was intended for=
 the situations like a water elemental washing itself up onto the beach for=
 a few pulses (so you can't stand there and thumb your nose at it all day).=
&nbsp; Banishment spell was still intended to function as per normal.<br><b=
r>From Bernard Hoggins<br>=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 14/=
6/10, Errol Cavit <i>&lt;Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5p=
x; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Errol Cavit &lt;Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com&=
gt;<br>Subject: Re: [dq] Elementals as per Gods' Vote<br>To: dq@dq.sf.org.n=
z<br>Received: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 2:17 PM<br><br><div class=3D"plainMai=
l">Note that I haven't updated the primary Elementals' entries on the Wiki.=
<br><br>I took everything above 'Common Characteristics' on the Proposals p=
age to be introduction and explanation, and applied only the parts below th=
at point to the revised Bestiary entries. Therefore the proposal voted in d=
oesn't change either the College or Bestiary values for EN/FT. The Intro po=
ints out the existing inconsistency.<br><br>I agree with Struan's reading o=
f the use of Namer Banishment on Ritually Summoned Elementals (that the int=
ent is that the
 non-instant departure statement ONLY applies to Elementals that have lost =
contact with their element).<br>If people indicate their agreement that thi=
s is sensible/what was voted in I'm happy to produce revised PDFs that make=
 this point clear (unfortunate page break didn't help!) this evening (I don=
't have the modified Word .doc to hand).<br><br>Cheers<br>Errol<br></div></=
blockquote></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      &nbsp;
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Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.  

 

As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.

I'd almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM, but more
MR or duration.

 

I'd not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed - currently
counterspells are their contribution to 'power ups'.  But there are so many
that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent rank.

 

There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I'd rather see more of
them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to be lacking
on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).  

 

Regards

Rosemary

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
Martin Dickson
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal

 

Always keen on EP sinks. :)

I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.
(Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).

One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
elements...

 

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

 

I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.

For non-Namers, there are two differences. 

1.	Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
Knowledge spells
2.	The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.

For Namers, the differences are

They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
that affect branches:

1.	Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
will have 8 normal counterspells. 
2.	The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
knowledge is 10+1/Rank.

 Discuss.

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Yes Celestial is in the elemental
branch.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>As for EP sinks this hugely reduces =
the
drainage hole for Namers.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;d almost like to see the =
branch
counterspells have a higher EM, but more MR or =
duration.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;d not like to see Namers =
abilities
be overshadowed &#8211; currently counterspells are their contribution =
to &#8216;power
ups&#8217;.&nbsp; But there are so many that it takes ages for them to =
have a
handy selection at a decent rank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There are only a couple of pure =
namers out
there and I&#8217;d rather see more of them than Namer/fighter =
combinations
(most of the latter seem to be lacking on both fronts unless they took =
namer
after years of warrior).&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Rosemary<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DTahoma><span =
lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:blue;font-weight:bold'=
>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DTahoma><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;color:blue'> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Martin
Dickson<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, 14 June =
2010 3:07
p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] =
Counterspell
proposal</span></font><font color=3Dblue><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblue face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>=


<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblue
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:blue'>Always keen on
EP sinks. :)<br>
<br>
I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer
changes.&nbsp; (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).<br>
<br>
One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?&nbsp; Light and Dark =
are
elements...<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>I propose a change to the current counterspell
conventions.</span></font><font size=3D2><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>For non-Namers, there are two differences. =
</span></font><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     10.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Out of college counterspells are =
rankable as
     if they were Special Knowledge spells<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1'><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     10.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with =
respect to
     the College and body of knowledge is 10 =
+1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>For Namers, the differences =
are<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>They no longer have college counterspells, instead =
they
have counterspells that affect branches:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     10.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and =
Entity.
     This means that they will have 8 normal&nbsp;counterspells. =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:
     10.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with =
respect to
     the Branch and body of knowledge is =
10+1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DGeorgia><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Georgia'>&nbsp;Discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Yikes, as far as=A0I am concerned, nothing was proposed that changed the wa=
y spell or item Banishment of elementals works. There are 2 paragraphs that=
 deal with Elementals not being in contact with their element, and an auto =
banishment clause stated in them that varies depending on whether summoned =
by spell or ritual. This in no way should be related to such things as Name=
r or Rune Banishment options.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________=
_=0AFrom: Errol Cavit <Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com>=0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=0AS=
ent: Mon, June 14, 2010 2:17:54 PM=0ASubject: Re: [dq] Elementals as per Go=
ds' Vote=0A=0ANote that I haven't updated the primary Elementals' entries o=
n the Wiki.=0A=0AI took everything above 'Common Characteristics' on the Pr=
oposals page to be introduction and explanation, and applied only the parts=
 below that point to the revised Bestiary entries. Therefore the proposal v=
oted in doesn't change either the College or Bestiary values for EN/FT. The=
 Intro points out the existing inconsistency.=0A=0AI agree with Struan's re=
ading of the use of Namer Banishment on Ritually Summoned Elementals (that =
the intent is that the non-instant departure statement ONLY applies to Elem=
entals that have lost contact with their element).=0AIf people indicate the=
ir agreement that this is sensible/what was voted in I'm happy to produce r=
evised PDFs that make this point clear (unfortunate page break didn't help!=
) this evening (I don't have the modified Word .doc to hand).=0A=0ACheers=
=0AErrol=0A=0A=0A-----Original Message-----=0AFrom: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [=
mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Struan Judd=0ASent: Monday, 14 J=
une 2010 1:32 p.m.=0ATo: dq@dq.sf.org.nz=0ASubject: Re: [dq] Elementals as =
per new Rulebook=0A=0ASorry,=0A=0AI was reading the wrong section for error=
s and also assuming the=0ACreature statistics section to take precedence ov=
er the explanatory=0Anotes.=0A=0ATwo changes to the Initial Notes are proba=
bly required to remove ambiguity:=0Aa) Add " Neither statistic may be great=
er than the maximum listed in=0Athe specific Elemental's Bestiary entry." a=
fter "An Elementals Fatigue=0A& Endurance from summoning are to be split ap=
proximately to the=0Aratio's given in the bestiary, of 2 Endurance:3 Fatigu=
e."=0Ab) Change the last two points ("A Spell Summoned Elemental will=0Aimm=
ediately be banished should it loose contact with its Element." and=0A"A Ri=
tually summoned Elemental will not be banished immediately, but=0Awill inst=
ead suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it will=0Athen be Ban=
ished.") to read "When an Summoned Elemental looses contact=0Awith it's ele=
ment it will be Banished. If Summoned by a Spell this=0Abanishment will hap=
pen immediately, but if Summoned by a Ritual it=0Awill suffer a 5Ft/Pulse d=
rain, and when out of fatigue it will then be=0ABanished"=0A=0ATTFN, Struan=
.=0A=0AOn Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 13:15, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote=
:=0A> I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in t=
he=0A> bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has an=
 EN=0A> higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply pointin=
g out=0A> where the transcription error lay.=0A> I don't care what the orig=
inal designers intended, although I would like to=0A> know what it was they=
 were smoking when they were doing this designing. The=0A> concern is that =
I can place an NPC in the world with the equivalent=0A> Experience of 2 or =
3 low level games and 4 years of training time,=A0who can=0A> then generate=
=A0a monster with about 330 combined EN & FT. Which also, as I=0A> read fur=
ther, cannot be banished in the normal way.=0A> If I allow this rule in my =
game, and assuming sensible,=0A> predictable=A0advancement by npcs, then th=
e world will be littered with the=0A> shattered bodies of adventurers.=0A> =
If a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could create=
=0A> really powerful elementals, I=A0really couldn't give a rat's arse.=A0B=
ut, this=0A> is a baseline change which will have an effect on the environm=
ent in which=0A> games are set.=0A>=0A> On 14 June 2010 12:54, Martin Dicks=
on <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>> We know that the original ru=
les were a) written as sections, b) written by=0A>> different authors, and =
c) coordinated in a way that suggests their only=0A>> method of communicati=
on was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of=0A>> short messages l=
eft attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly before=0A>> the advent o=
f post-it notes).=0A>>=0A>> If college and bestiary differ on details we sh=
ould just be grateful that=0A>> they even managed to get the same name on b=
oth entities, and if 15+6 totals=0A>> up to 50+85 then that would appear to=
 point to a sensible option, n'est pas?=0A>>=0A>> But... meh... in the grea=
ter scheme of things though Jim this is not a=0A>> great matter... and I kn=
ow I have no wish to return to heated arguments=0A>> about the intent of th=
e designers... and whether geas was ever really meant=0A>> to go to Rank 50=
. :)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@=
gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>> But sadly inaccurate. The original equation f=
or summoning Air, Fire and=0A>>> Water elementals was 15 + 15 /Rank combine=
d FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,=0A>>> it was 15+5/Rank. There was a tran=
scription error when the Fire College was=0A>>> revised, so that the equati=
on changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was either=0A>>> not noticed or not car=
ed about because you would have to be a moron to=0A>>> prefer Fire Elementa=
l to Lesser Efreet. Ice elementals arrived somewhat=0A>>> later on the scen=
e.=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz =
--=0A=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1995623250-1276485705=:73556
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV>Yikes, as far as&nbsp;I am concerned, nothing was prop=
osed that changed the way spell or item Banishment of elementals works. The=
re are 2 paragraphs that deal with Elementals not being in contact with the=
ir element, and an auto banishment clause stated in them that varies depend=
ing on whether summoned by spell or ritual. This in no way should be relate=
d to such things as Namer or Rune Banishment options.<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif"=
><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 13px; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-=
serif"><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Errol Cavit &lt;Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com=
&gt;<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> dq@dq.sf.org.nz=
<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Mon, June 14, 201=
0 2:17:54 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re=
: [dq] Elementals as per Gods' Vote<BR></FONT><BR>Note that I haven't updat=
ed the primary Elementals' entries on the Wiki.<BR><BR>I took everything ab=
ove 'Common Characteristics' on the Proposals page to be introduction and e=
xplanation, and applied only the parts below that point to the revised Best=
iary entries. Therefore the proposal voted in doesn't change either the Col=
lege or Bestiary values for EN/FT. The Intro points out the existing incons=
istency.<BR><BR>I agree with Struan's reading of the use of Namer Banishmen=
t on Ritually Summoned Elementals (that the intent is that the non-instant =
departure statement ONLY applies to Elementals that have
 lost contact with their element).<BR>If people indicate their agreement th=
at this is sensible/what was voted in I'm happy to produce revised PDFs tha=
t make this point clear (unfortunate page break didn't help!) this evening =
(I don't have the modified Word .doc to hand).<BR><BR>Cheers<BR>Errol<BR><B=
R><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.=
org.nz" ymailto=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A> =
[mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" ymailto=3D"mailto:dq-owner=
@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</A>] On Behalf Of Struan Judd<BR>Sent:=
 Monday, 14 June 2010 1:32 p.m.<BR>To: <A href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" y=
mailto=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</A><BR>Subject: Re: [dq] =
Elementals as per new Rulebook<BR><BR>Sorry,<BR><BR>I was reading the wrong=
 section for errors and also assuming the<BR>Creature statistics section to=
 take precedence over the explanatory<BR>notes.<BR><BR>Two changes to the
 Initial Notes are probably required to remove ambiguity:<BR>a) Add " Neith=
er statistic may be greater than the maximum listed in<BR>the specific Elem=
ental's Bestiary entry." after "An Elementals Fatigue<BR>&amp; Endurance fr=
om summoning are to be split approximately to the<BR>ratio's given in the b=
estiary, of 2 Endurance:3 Fatigue."<BR>b) Change the last two points ("A Sp=
ell Summoned Elemental will<BR>immediately be banished should it loose cont=
act with its Element." and<BR>"A Ritually summoned Elemental will not be ba=
nished immediately, but<BR>will instead suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when =
out of fatigue it will<BR>then be Banished.") to read "When an Summoned Ele=
mental looses contact<BR>with it's element it will be Banished. If Summoned=
 by a Spell this<BR>banishment will happen immediately, but if Summoned by =
a Ritual it<BR>will suffer a 5Ft/Pulse drain, and when out of fatigue it wi=
ll then be<BR>Banished"<BR><BR>TTFN, Struan.<BR><BR>On Mon, Jun 14,
 2010 at 13:15, Jim Arona &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" ymailt=
o=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>&gt;=
 I have no issue with the equations. I am talking about the entry in the<BR=
>&gt; bestiary, where it is now possible to have an elemental which has an =
EN<BR>&gt; higher than 50 and a FT value greater than 85. I was simply poin=
ting out<BR>&gt; where the transcription error lay.<BR>&gt; I don't care wh=
at the original designers intended, although I would like to<BR>&gt; know w=
hat it was they were smoking when they were doing this designing. The<BR>&g=
t; concern is that I can place an NPC in the world with the equivalent<BR>&=
gt; Experience of 2 or 3 low level games and 4 years of training time,&nbsp=
;who can<BR>&gt; then generate&nbsp;a monster with about 330 combined EN &a=
mp; FT. Which also, as I<BR>&gt; read further, cannot be banished in the no=
rmal way.<BR>&gt; If I allow this rule in my game, and assuming
 sensible,<BR>&gt; predictable&nbsp;advancement by npcs, then the world wil=
l be littered with the<BR>&gt; shattered bodies of adventurers.<BR>&gt; If =
a pc had this as a refinement to their ritual so that they could create<BR>=
&gt; really powerful elementals, I&nbsp;really couldn't give a rat's arse.&=
nbsp;But, this<BR>&gt; is a baseline change which will have an effect on th=
e environment in which<BR>&gt; games are set.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; On 14 June 20=
10 12:54, Martin Dickson &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com" ym=
ailto=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</A>&gt; =
wrote:<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; We know that the original rules were a) writ=
ten as sections, b) written by<BR>&gt;&gt; different authors, and c) coordi=
nated in a way that suggests their only<BR>&gt;&gt; method of communication=
 was either through lawyers or the exclusive use of<BR>&gt;&gt; short messa=
ges left attached to fridge magnets (this being shortly
 before<BR>&gt;&gt; the advent of post-it notes).<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I=
f college and bestiary differ on details we should just be grateful that<BR=
>&gt;&gt; they even managed to get the same name on both entities, and if 1=
5+6 totals<BR>&gt;&gt; up to 50+85 then that would appear to point to a sen=
sible option, n'est pas?<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; But... meh... in the great=
er scheme of things though Jim this is not a<BR>&gt;&gt; great matter... an=
d I know I have no wish to return to heated arguments<BR>&gt;&gt; about the=
 intent of the designers... and whether geas was ever really meant<BR>&gt;&=
gt; to go to Rank 50. :)<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jun 14=
, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Jim Arona &lt;<A href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" ym=
ailto=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</A>&gt; wrote:<BR>=
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; But sadly inaccurate. The original equation fo=
r summoning Air, Fire and<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; Water elementals was 15 + 15
 /Rank combined FT and EN. For Earth Elementals,<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; it was 15+=
5/Rank. There was a transcription error when the Fire College was<BR>&gt;&g=
t;&gt; revised, so that the equation changed to 15 + 5/Rank, and this was e=
ither<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; not noticed or not cared about because you would have=
 to be a moron to<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; prefer Fire Elemental to Lesser Efreet. I=
ce elementals arrived somewhat<BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; later on the scene.<BR>&gt;<=
BR>&gt;<BR><BR><BR>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:dq-req=
uest@dq.sf.org.nz" ymailto=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq=
.sf.org.nz</A> --<BR></DIV></DIV></div><br>=0A=0A      </body></html>
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Without commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I'd like to see a=
 benefit for knowing a non-standard College's. Perhaps half effectiveness i=
f you don't know the actual college (standard colleges learnt with Namer Co=
llege).

Part of WordSmith's character intro is a
"I'm an Actual Namer."
"So where's the hand-and-a-half?"
"Actual, not 'Real'. Try not to die, I don't want to have to carry you".
[:-[)]

Cheers
Errol

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of R M=
ansfield
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal

Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.

As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.
I'd almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM, but more =
MR or duration.

I'd not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed - currently counterspe=
lls are their contribution to 'power ups'.  But there are so many that it t=
akes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent rank.

There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I'd rather see more of=
 them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to be lackin=
g on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).

Regards
Rosemary

________________________________
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Mar=
tin Dickson
Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal

Always keen on EP sinks. :)

I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes. =
 (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).

One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are ele=
ments...

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com<mailto:jim.=
arona@gmail.com>> wrote:

I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
For non-Namers, there are two differences.

 1.  Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Know=
ledge spells
 2.  The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of =
knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
For Namers, the differences are
They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells =
that affect branches:

 1.  Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they wi=
ll have 8 normal counterspells.
 2.  The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of k=
nowledge is 10+1/Rank.
 Discuss.


--_000_E4F28746A84A0B43B75CC30152A507D23844AF3060nzexmaln01tol_
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<body lang=3DEN-NZ link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Without commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I&=
#8217;d
like to see a benefit for knowing a non-standard College&#8217;s. Perhaps h=
alf
effectiveness if you don&#8217;t know the actual college (standard colleges
learnt with Namer College).<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Part of WordSmith&#8217;s character intro is a <o:p></o:p></=
span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&#8220;I&#8217;m an Actual Namer.&#8221; <o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&#8220;So where&#8217;s the hand-and-a-half?&#8221; <o:p></o=
:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&#8220;Actual, not &#8216;Real&#8217;. Try not to die, I don=
&#8217;t
want to have to carry you&#8221;. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>[:-[)]<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Cheers<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Errol<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b>On Behalf Of </b>R Mansfield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namer=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I&#8217;d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a hi=
gher
EM, but more MR or duration.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I&#8217;d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed &#82=
11;
currently counterspells are their contribution to &#8216;power
ups&#8217;.&nbsp; But there are so many that it takes ages for them to have=
 a
handy selection at a decent rank.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I&#8217;d
rather see more of them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter
seem to be lacking on both fronts unless they took namer after years of
warrior).&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Rosemary<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span lan=
g=3DEN-US>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</span></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blue'>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blue'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ma=
rtin
Dickson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal</span><span lang=3DEN-US
style=3D'color:blue'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'color:blue'><o:p>&nbsp;</o=
:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'color:blue'>Always keen on EP sinks. :)<br>
<br>
I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer
changes.&nbsp; (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).<br>
<br>
One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?&nbsp; Light and Dark ar=
e
elements...<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB>On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Ji=
m Arona
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Georgia","serif"'>I
propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.</span><span
lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Georgia","serif"'>For
non-Namers, there are two differences. </span><span lang=3DEN-GB
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
     font-family:"Georgia","serif"'>Out of college counterspells are rankab=
le
     as if they were Special Knowledge spells<o:p></o:p></span></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
     font-family:"Georgia","serif"'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with resp=
ect
     to the College and body of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/li>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Georgia","serif"'>For
Namers, the differences are<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Georgia","serif"'>They
no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells that
affect branches:<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<ol start=3D1 type=3D1>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
     font-family:"Georgia","serif"'>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and
     Entity. This means that they will have 8 normal&nbsp;counterspells. <o=
:p></o:p></span></li>
 <li class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;
     mso-list:l0 level1 lfo6'><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
     font-family:"Georgia","serif"'>The bonus to Magic Resistance with resp=
ect
     to the Branch and body of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.<o:p></o:p></span></l=
i>
</ol>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Georgia","serif"'>&nbsp;Discuss.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-GB><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

--_000_E4F28746A84A0B43B75CC30152A507D23844AF3060nzexmaln01tol_--


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Hmmm.

The thought your comments triggers is as follows:

In college counterspells exactly as current.
Namer counterspells protect vs a branch, give 20 ( +2 / Rank ) MR and
last D+5 ( +2 / Rank ) minutes
Out of College counterspells protect vs a College, give 10 ( +1 / Rank
) MR and last D+5 ( +1 / Rank ) minutes

Thus Namers have eight General Spells, General and Special
counterspells for Thaumaturgies, Elements, Entities and Namer.

TTFN, Struan.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 15:19, R Mansfield <rmansfield@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.
>
>
>
> As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.
>
> I’d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM, but more
> MR or duration.
>
>
>
> I’d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed – currently
> counterspells are their contribution to ‘power ups’.  But there are so many
> that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent rank.
>
>
>
> There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I’d rather see more of
> them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to be lacking
> on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Rosemary
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of
> Martin Dickson
> Sent: Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.
>
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Always keen on EP sinks. :)
>
> I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.
> (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).
>
> One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
> elements...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
>
> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>
> Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Knowledge
> spells
> The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of
> knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>
> For Namers, the differences are
>
> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
> that affect branches:
>
> Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they will
> have 8 normal counterspells.
> The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
> knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>
>  Discuss.
>
>


-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

--001485f9a73ef695c60488f5b125
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The reason for the branch counterspell is that if a new college is
encountered, then a namer simply has to know what branch of magic it is, an=
d
they have the appropriate counterspell.
With respect to Rosemary's question about the reason for having a change at
all, counterspells provide a huge initial bonus to MR but over a very narro=
w
range of magical attacks. A bonus of 30+3 /Rank means that a moderately
tough character need only have a Rank 0 counterspell before being reasonabl=
y
safe from magic from that source. And, it ties up none of your Experience,
just a small amount of time.
Granted, the duration isn't huge, but you don't see many fights that last
longer than a minute in DQ.

On 14 June 2010 15:59, Errol Cavit <Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com> wrote:

>  Without commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I=92d like to =
see
> a benefit for knowing a non-standard College=92s. Perhaps half effectiven=
ess
> if you don=92t know the actual college (standard colleges learnt with Nam=
er
> College).
>
>
>
> Part of WordSmith=92s character intro is a
>
> =93I=92m an Actual Namer.=94
>
> =93So where=92s the hand-and-a-half?=94
>
> =93Actual, not =91Real=92. Try not to die, I don=92t want to have to carr=
y you=94.
>
> [:-[)]
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Errol
>
>
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *R Mansfield
> *Sent:* Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.
>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.
>
>
>
> As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.
>
> I=92d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM, but m=
ore
> MR or duration.
>
>
>
> I=92d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed =96 currently
> counterspells are their contribution to =91power ups=92.  But there are s=
o many
> that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent rank.
>
>
>
> There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I=92d rather see mor=
e of
> them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to be lacki=
ng
> on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Rosemary
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Martin Dickson
> *Sent:* Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Always keen on EP sinks. :)
>
> I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes=
.
> (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).
>
> One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
> elements...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
>
> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>
>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>    Knowledge spells
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
>    of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>
>  For Namers, the differences are
>
> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspell=
s
> that affect branches:
>
>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
>    will have 8 normal counterspells.
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body o=
f
>    knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>
>   Discuss.
>
>
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">The reason for the branch counterspell is=
 that if a new college is encountered, then a namer simply has to know what=
 branch of magic it is, and they have the appropriate counterspell. </font>=
</div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">With respect to Rosemary&#39;s question a=
bout the reason for having a change at all, counterspells provide a huge in=
itial bonus to MR but over a very narrow range of magical attacks. A bonus =
of 30+3 /Rank means that a moderately tough character need only have a Rank=
 0 counterspell before being reasonably safe from magic from that source. A=
nd, it ties up none of your Experience, just a small amount of time. </font=
></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Granted, the duration isn&#39;t huge, but=
 you don&#39;t see many fights that last longer than a minute in DQ.<br></f=
ont><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 15:59, Errol Cavit <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com">Errol.Cavit@tollgroup=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div lang=3D"EN-NZ" vlink=3D"blue" link=3D"blue">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">With=
out commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I=92d like to see a b=
enefit for knowing a non-standard College=92s. Perhaps half effectiveness i=
f you don=92t know the actual college (standard colleges learnt with Namer =
College).</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Part=
 of WordSmith=92s character intro is a </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93I=
=92m an Actual Namer.=94 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93S=
o where=92s the hand-and-a-half?=94 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93A=
ctual, not =91Real=92. Try not to die, I don=92t want to have to carry you=
=94. </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">[:-[=
)]</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Chee=
rs</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Erro=
l</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING=
-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1p=
t solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-US">Fr=
om:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq=
.sf.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>R Mansfield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=
=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Counterspell pr=
oposal</div></div></span>
<p></p></p></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.=A0 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">I=92d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM,=
 but more MR or duration.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">I=92d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed =96 currentl=
y counterspells are their contribution to =91power ups=92.=A0 But there are=
 so many that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent =
rank.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I=92d rather s=
ee more of them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to=
 be lacking on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).=
=A0 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Rosemary</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=
=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-=
owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Dickso=
n<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto=
:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal</span><span style=3D"COLOR: blue" lang=3D"EN=
-US"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: blue" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span=
></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: =
blue" lang=3D"EN-GB">Always keen on EP sinks. :)<br><br>I&#39;d be keen to =
see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.=A0 (Whose CS co=
uld be gruntier if nothing else).<br>
<br>One note though... Celestial is elemental isn&#39;t it?=A0 Light and Da=
rk are elements...</span></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: =
navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM=
, Jim Arona &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
m.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">I propose a change to the curre=
nt counterspell conventions.</span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"=
EN-GB"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">For non-Namers, there are two d=
ifferences. </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB"></span></=
p></div>

<ol type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">Out of college counterspells a=
re rankable as if they were Special Knowledge spells</span></li>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">The bonus to Magic Resistance =
with respect to the College and body of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</span></li=
>
</ol>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">For Namers, the differences are=
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">They no longer have college cou=
nterspells, instead they have counterspells that affect branches:</span></p=
>
</div>
<ol type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celest=
ial, and Entity. This means that they will have 8 normal=A0counterspells. <=
/span></li>

<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">The bonus to Magic Resistance =
with respect to the Branch and body of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.</span></li><=
/ol>

<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0Discuss.</span></p></div></d=
iv>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span></p></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Don't much care, but I prefer them to be treated as a separate branch for
this proposal. Otherwise, there would only be 6 counterspells. And,
actually, to say that light and dark are elements is to suggest that bone
and blood and bits of raffia are elements as well, so where are you going to
draw the line?

On 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
> elements...
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
>> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>>
>>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>>    Knowledge spells
>>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
>>    of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>>
>> For Namers, the differences are
>> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
>> that affect branches:
>>
>>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
>>    will have 8 normal counterspells.
>>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body
>>    of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>>
>>  Discuss.
>>
>
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">Don&#39;t much care, but I prefer them to be t=
reated as a separate branch for this proposal. Otherwise, there would only =
be 6 counterspells. And, actually, to say that light and dark are elements =
is to suggest that bone and blood and bits of raffia are elements as well, =
so where are you going to draw the line?<br>
</font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><br>One note though... Celes=
tial is elemental isn&#39;t it?=A0 Light and Dark are elements...=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">j=
im.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I propose a change to the current counter=
spell conventions.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">For non-Namers, there are two differences=
. </font></div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">
<ol>
<li>Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Knowl=
edge spells</li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of k=
nowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>For Namers, the differences are</div>
<div>They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have countersp=
ells that affect branches:</div>
<ol>
<li>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they wil=
l have 8 normal=A0counterspells. </li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of kn=
owledge is 10+1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>=A0Discuss.</div></font></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br>

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I've still got to read all these E-mails and have a think over them but....

With regards to Celestials.=A0 A topic I'm more familiar with.
Firstly, their listed specifically as an Elemental branch, and have bonuses=
 to MR accordingly.
Secondly, I'd refer to rune college for actual rules in the PHB that say th=
is.=A0 Rune of Light & Darkness both refer specifically to Elemental Light =
& Elemental Dark.

So we've already got rules that say Light & Dark can be Elements and have a=
lready assigned Celestial a branch.

If there are only 6 branch counterspells, + Purification, + as was said spe=
cifically Namers get Namer College counterspells to start with as well, we =
already have namers starting with 9 spells & rituals, Mind only starts with=
 11, and Namer currently only needs 1 MA.=A0 Not 11.

General thoughts so far on the actual counterspells.....
If Namers get branch counterspells, we don't need to weaken specific colleg=
e counterspells.=A0 They can actually be a tiny bit stronger even, since yo=
u need to get it exactly right, not just toss on a counterspell vs the bran=
ch and be covered vs all those elementalists the enemy has.=A0 This creates=
 a situation where you have to choose if you need that +10% vs Fire, or you=
 can do without to get that +30% vs all the other elemental colleges also.=
=A0 Needing to choose is good, no brainer branch counterspells better than =
individual counterspells, not so good.
From Bernard Hoggins
=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk

--- On Mon, 14/6/10, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Received: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 4:14 PM

Don't much care, but I prefer them to be treated as a separate branch for t=
his proposal. Otherwise, there would only be 6 counterspells. And, actually=
, to say that light and dark are elements is to suggest that bone and blood=
 and bits of raffia are elements as well, so where are you going to draw th=
e line?
=0A
=0AOn 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A

One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?=A0 Light and Dark are e=
lements... =0A=0A=0A

=0AOn Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
=0A=0AI propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.=0AFor non=
-Namers, there are two differences. =0A=0AOut of college counterspells are =
rankable as if they were Special Knowledge spells=0AThe bonus to Magic Resi=
stance with respect to the College and body of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.=0AF=
or Namers, the differences are=0AThey no longer have college counterspells,=
 instead they have counterspells that affect branches:=0A=0AThaumaturgy, El=
emental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they will have 8 normal=A0c=
ounterspells. =0AThe bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch a=
nd body of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.=0A=A0Discuss.

=0A=0A=0A=0A      
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">I've still got to read all these E-mails and =
have a think over them but....<br><br>With regards to Celestials.&nbsp; A t=
opic I'm more familiar with.<br>Firstly, their listed specifically as an El=
emental branch, and have bonuses to MR accordingly.<br>Secondly, I'd refer =
to rune college for actual rules in the PHB that say this.&nbsp; Rune of Li=
ght &amp; Darkness both refer specifically to Elemental Light &amp; Element=
al Dark.<br><br>So we've already got rules that say Light &amp; Dark can be=
 Elements and have already assigned Celestial a branch.<br><br>If there are=
 only 6 branch counterspells, + Purification, + as was said specifically Na=
mers get Namer College counterspells to start with as well, we already have=
 namers starting with 9 spells &amp; rituals, Mind only starts with 11, and=
 Namer currently only needs 1 MA.&nbsp; Not 11.<br><br>General thoughts so =
far
 on the actual counterspells.....<br>If Namers get branch counterspells, we=
 don't need to weaken specific college counterspells.&nbsp; They can actual=
ly be a tiny bit stronger even, since you need to get it exactly right, not=
 just toss on a counterspell vs the branch and be covered vs all those elem=
entalists the enemy has.&nbsp; This creates a situation where you have to c=
hoose if you need that +10% vs Fire, or you can do without to get that +30%=
 vs all the other elemental colleges also.&nbsp; Needing to choose is good,=
 no brainer branch counterspells better than individual counterspells, not =
so good.<br>From Bernard Hoggins<br>=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br><br>--- On <=
b>Mon, 14/6/10, Jim Arona <i>&lt;jim.arona@gmail.com&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: =
5px; padding-left: 5px;"><br>From: Jim Arona &lt;jim.arona@gmail.com&gt;<br=
>Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal<br>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>Received=
: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 4:14 PM<br><br><div id=3D"yiv382024853"><font face=
=3D"georgia,serif">Don't much care, but I prefer them to be treated as a se=
parate branch for this proposal. Otherwise, there would only be 6 countersp=
ells. And, actually, to say that light and dark are elements is to suggest =
that bone and blood and bits of raffia are elements as well, so where are y=
ou going to draw the line?<br>=0A</font><br>=0A<div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofoll=
ow" ymailto=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/=
mc/compose?to=3Dmartin.dickson@gmail.com">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br>=0A<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 20=
4, 204); margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;" class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><br><br>One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?&nbsp; Light =
and Dark are elements... =0A<div>=0A<div></div>=0A<div class=3D"h5"><br><br=
>=0A<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" ymailto=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"/mc/compose?to=3Djim.arona@gmail.com">jim.ar=
ona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=0A<blockquote style=3D"border-left:=
 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex=
;" class=3D"gmail_quote">=0A<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I propose a c=
hange to the current counterspell conventions.</font></div>=0A<div><font fa=
ce=3D"georgia,serif">For non-Namers, there are two differences. </font></di=
v><font face=3D"georgia,serif">=0A<ol>=0A<li>Out of college counterspells a=
re rankable as if they were Special Knowledge spells</li>=0A<li>The bonus t=
o Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of knowledge is 10 =
+1/Rank.</li></ol>=0A<div>For Namers, the differences are</div>=0A<div>They=
 no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells that=
 affect branches:</div>=0A<ol>=0A<li>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and=
 Entity. This means that they will have 8 normal&nbsp;counterspells. </li>=
=0A<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of=
 knowledge is 10+1/Rank.</li></ol>=0A<div>&nbsp;Discuss.</div></font></bloc=
kquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br>=0A</div></blockquote><=
/td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      &nbsp;
--0-396867507-1276489299=:62087--


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Re the Namer effects, could we instead propose a new Namer Special Ability

A Namer may cast a counterspell to have one third of its normal effect against any college in
the same branch.


Similar outcome in terms of non-standard colleges, less of a conversion nightmare.

Cheers, Stephen.

On Mon, June 14, 2010 1:25 pm, Jim Arona wrote:
> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>
>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>    Knowledge spells
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of
>    knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>
> For Namers, the differences are
> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspells
> that affect branches:
>
>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
>    will have 8 normal counterspells.
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of
>    knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>
>  Discuss.
>


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It's a game, Bernard, filled with all sorts of definitions because that's
what people do. It doesn't make it an inherent part of the ruleset, or even
if it did, this proposal doesn't address it.
Let's just focus on the suggestion, rather than the pedantic devotion to
what the word elemental means.

On 14 June 2010 16:21, Bernard Hoggins <nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>   I've still got to read all these E-mails and have a think over them
> but....
>
> With regards to Celestials.  A topic I'm more familiar with.
> Firstly, their listed specifically as an Elemental branch, and have bonuses
> to MR accordingly.
> Secondly, I'd refer to rune college for actual rules in the PHB that say
> this.  Rune of Light & Darkness both refer specifically to Elemental Light &
> Elemental Dark.
>
> So we've already got rules that say Light & Dark can be Elements and have
> already assigned Celestial a branch.
>
> If there are only 6 branch counterspells, + Purification, + as was said
> specifically Namers get Namer College counterspells to start with as well,
> we already have namers starting with 9 spells & rituals, Mind only starts
> with 11, and Namer currently only needs 1 MA.  Not 11.
>
> General thoughts so far on the actual counterspells.....
> If Namers get branch counterspells, we don't need to weaken specific
> college counterspells.  They can actually be a tiny bit stronger even, since
> you need to get it exactly right, not just toss on a counterspell vs the
> branch and be covered vs all those elementalists the enemy has.  This
> creates a situation where you have to choose if you need that +10% vs Fire,
> or you can do without to get that +30% vs all the other elemental colleges
> also.  Needing to choose is good, no brainer branch counterspells better
> than individual counterspells, not so good.
> From Bernard Hoggins
> nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk
>
> --- On *Mon, 14/6/10, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> Received: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 4:14 PM
>
>
> Don't much care, but I prefer them to be treated as a separate branch for
> this proposal. Otherwise, there would only be 6 counterspells. And,
> actually, to say that light and dark are elements is to suggest that bone
> and blood and bits of raffia are elements as well, so where are you going to
> draw the line?
>
> On 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=martin.dickson@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
>> elements...
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com<http://mc/compose?to=jim.arona@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
>>> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>>>
>>>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>>>    Knowledge spells
>>>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
>>>    of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>>>
>>> For Namers, the differences are
>>> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have
>>> counterspells that affect branches:
>>>
>>>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that
>>>    they will have 8 normal counterspells.
>>>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body
>>>    of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>>>
>>>  Discuss.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">It&#39;s a game, Bernard, filled with all=
 sorts of definitions because that&#39;s what people do. It doesn&#39;t mak=
e it an inherent part of the ruleset, or even if it did, this proposal does=
n&#39;t address it.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Let&#39;s just focus on the suggestion, r=
ather than the pedantic devotion to what the word elemental means.<br></fon=
t><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 16:21, Bernard Hoggins <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<table border=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">I&#39;ve still got to read all these E-mails and have a =
think over them but....<br><br>With regards to Celestials.=A0 A topic I&#39=
;m more familiar with.<br>Firstly, their listed specifically as an Elementa=
l branch, and have bonuses to MR accordingly.<br>
Secondly, I&#39;d refer to rune college for actual rules in the PHB that sa=
y this.=A0 Rune of Light &amp; Darkness both refer specifically to Elementa=
l Light &amp; Elemental Dark.<br><br>So we&#39;ve already got rules that sa=
y Light &amp; Dark can be Elements and have already assigned Celestial a br=
anch.<br>
<br>If there are only 6 branch counterspells, + Purification, + as was said=
 specifically Namers get Namer College counterspells to start with as well,=
 we already have namers starting with 9 spells &amp; rituals, Mind only sta=
rts with 11, and Namer currently only needs 1 MA.=A0 Not 11.<br>
<br>General thoughts so far on the actual counterspells.....<br>If Namers g=
et branch counterspells, we don&#39;t need to weaken specific college count=
erspells.=A0 They can actually be a tiny bit stronger even, since you need =
to get it exactly right, not just toss on a counterspell vs the branch and =
be covered vs all those elementalists the enemy has.=A0 This creates a situ=
ation where you have to choose if you need that +10% vs Fire, or you can do=
 without to get that +30% vs all the other elemental colleges also.=A0 Need=
ing to choose is good, no brainer branch counterspells better than individu=
al counterspells, not so good.<br>
From Bernard Hoggins<br><a href=3D"mailto:nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk</a><br><br>--- On <b>Mon, 14/6/10, Jim Arona <i=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</i></b> wrote:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><br>From: Jim Arona &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;=20
<div class=3D"im"><br>Subject: Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal<br>To: <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br></div=
>Received: Monday, 14 June, 2010, 4:14 PM=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><br>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Don&#39;t much care, but I prefer them to=
 be treated as a separate branch for this proposal. Otherwise, there would =
only be 6 counterspells. And, actually, to say that light and dark are elem=
ents is to suggest that bone and blood and bits of raffia are elements as w=
ell, so where are you going to draw the line?<br>
</font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 15:06, Martin Dickson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Dmartin.dickson@gmail.com" re=
l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br>

<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><br><br>One note tho=
ugh... Celestial is elemental isn&#39;t it?=A0 Light and Dark are elements.=
..=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"http://mc/compose?to=3Djim.arona@gmail.com" rel=
=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I propose a change to the current counter=
spell conventions.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">For non-Namers, there are two differences=
. </font></div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">
<ol>
<li>Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special Knowl=
edge spells</li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body of k=
nowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>For Namers, the differences are</div>
<div>They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have countersp=
ells that affect branches:</div>
<ol>
<li>Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they wil=
l have 8 normal=A0counterspells. </li>
<li>The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body of kn=
owledge is 10+1/Rank.</li></ol>
<div>=A0Discuss.</div></font></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><br>=
=A0</blockquote></div><br>

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We could wear pink stockings over our heads if it would make the game more
enjoyable, and I am sure I could find some if anyone was willing to give it
a try.
What is the advantage of your suggestion, Stephen?

On 14 June 2010 16:35, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:

> Re the Namer effects, could we instead propose a new Namer Special Ability
>
> A Namer may cast a counterspell to have one third of its normal effect
> against any college in
> the same branch.
>
>
> Similar outcome in terms of non-standard colleges, less of a conversion
> nightmare.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> On Mon, June 14, 2010 1:25 pm, Jim Arona wrote:
> > I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
> > For non-Namers, there are two differences.
> >
> >    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
> >    Knowledge spells
> >    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
> of
> >    knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
> >
> > For Namers, the differences are
> > They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have
> counterspells
> > that affect branches:
> >
> >    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
> >    will have 8 normal counterspells.
> >    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body
> of
> >    knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
> >
> >  Discuss.
> >
>
>
>  -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">We could wear pink stockings over our hea=
ds if it would make the game more enjoyable, and I am sure I could find som=
e if anyone was willing to give it a try.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">What is the=
 advantage of your suggestion, Stephen?<br></font><br></div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 16:35, Stephen Martin <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Re the Namer effects, could we i=
nstead propose a new Namer Special Ability<br><br>A Namer may cast a counte=
rspell to have one third of its normal effect against any college in<br>
the same branch.<br><br><br>Similar outcome in terms of non-standard colleg=
es, less of a conversion nightmare.<br><br>Cheers, Stephen.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>On Mon, June 14, 2010 1:25 pm, Jim Arona wrote:<br>&g=
t; I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.<br>&gt; For =
non-Namers, there are two differences.<br>&gt;<br></div>&gt; =A0 =A01. Out =
of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0Knowledge spells<br>&gt; =A0 =A02. The bonus to Magic Resistanc=
e with respect to the College and body of<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =A0 =A0knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; For =
Namers, the differences are<br>&gt; They no longer have college counterspel=
ls, instead they have counterspells<br>&gt; that affect branches:<br>&gt;<b=
r>
</div>&gt; =A0 =A01. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This me=
ans that they<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =A0 =A0will have 8 normal counterspells.<br></div>&g=
t; =A0 =A02. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and b=
ody of<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; =A0 =A0knowledge is 10+1/Rank.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =A0Di=
scuss.<br>&gt;<br><br><br></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-requ=
est@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br></div></div></blockquot=
e></div><br>

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The benefit would be that a) you wouldn't need to learn and Rank
non-standard colleges, unless they couldn't be fit inside one branch, and b=
)
if you already have, you would get the Experience and time refunded to spen=
d
elsewhere. It's not like Namers don't have a huge pile of stuff to spend on
magic.

On 14 June 2010 15:59, Errol Cavit <Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com> wrote:

>  Without commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I=92d like to =
see
> a benefit for knowing a non-standard College=92s. Perhaps half effectiven=
ess
> if you don=92t know the actual college (standard colleges learnt with Nam=
er
> College).
>
>
>
> Part of WordSmith=92s character intro is a
>
> =93I=92m an Actual Namer.=94
>
> =93So where=92s the hand-and-a-half?=94
>
> =93Actual, not =91Real=92. Try not to die, I don=92t want to have to carr=
y you=94.
>
> [:-[)]
>
>
>
> Cheers
>
> Errol
>
>
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *R Mansfield
> *Sent:* Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.
>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.
>
>
>
> As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.
>
> I=92d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM, but m=
ore
> MR or duration.
>
>
>
> I=92d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed =96 currently
> counterspells are their contribution to =91power ups=92.  But there are s=
o many
> that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent rank.
>
>
>
> There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I=92d rather see mor=
e of
> them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to be lacki=
ng
> on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Rosemary
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Martin Dickson
> *Sent:* Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Always keen on EP sinks. :)
>
> I'd be keen to see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes=
.
> (Whose CS could be gruntier if nothing else).
>
> One note though... Celestial is elemental isn't it?  Light and Dark are
> elements...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I propose a change to the current counterspell conventions.
>
> For non-Namers, there are two differences.
>
>    1. Out of college counterspells are rankable as if they were Special
>    Knowledge spells
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the College and body
>    of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.
>
>  For Namers, the differences are
>
> They no longer have college counterspells, instead they have counterspell=
s
> that affect branches:
>
>    1. Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celestial, and Entity. This means that they
>    will have 8 normal counterspells.
>    2. The bonus to Magic Resistance with respect to the Branch and body o=
f
>    knowledge is 10+1/Rank.
>
>   Discuss.
>
>
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">The benefit would be that a) you wouldn&#39;t =
need to learn and Rank non-standard colleges, unless they couldn&#39;t be f=
it inside one branch, and b) if you already have, you would get the Experie=
nce and time refunded to spend elsewhere. It&#39;s not like Namers don&#39;=
t have a huge pile of stuff to spend on magic.<br>
</font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 14 June 2010 15:59, Errol Cavit <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Errol.Cavit@tollgroup.com">Errol.Cavit@tollgroup=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div lang=3D"EN-NZ" vlink=3D"blue" link=3D"blue">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">With=
out commenting on the overall merits of the proposal, I=92d like to see a b=
enefit for knowing a non-standard College=92s. Perhaps half effectiveness i=
f you don=92t know the actual college (standard colleges learnt with Namer =
College).</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Part=
 of WordSmith=92s character intro is a </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93I=
=92m an Actual Namer.=94 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93S=
o where=92s the hand-and-a-half?=94 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=93A=
ctual, not =91Real=92. Try not to die, I don=92t want to have to carry you=
=94. </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">[:-[=
)]</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Chee=
rs</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Erro=
l</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">=A0<=
/span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING=
-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1p=
t solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-US">Fr=
om:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq=
.sf.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>R Mansfield<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:20 p.m.=20
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=
=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dq] Counterspell pr=
oposal</div></div></span>
<p></p></p></div></div>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Yes Celestial is in the elemental branch.=A0 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">As for EP sinks this hugely reduces the drainage hole for Namers.</=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">I=92d almost like to see the branch counterspells have a higher EM,=
 but more MR or duration.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">I=92d not like to see Namers abilities be overshadowed =96 currentl=
y counterspells are their contribution to =91power ups=92.=A0 But there are=
 so many that it takes ages for them to have a handy selection at a decent =
rank.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">There are only a couple of pure namers out there and I=92d rather s=
ee more of them than Namer/fighter combinations (most of the latter seem to=
 be lacking on both fronts unless they took namer after years of warrior).=
=A0 </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Regards</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">Rosemary</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><spa=
n lang=3D"EN-US">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=
=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lan=
g=3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-=
owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" tar=
get=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Martin Dickso=
n<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 14 June 2010 3:07 p.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto=
:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [dq] Counterspell proposal</span><span style=3D"COLOR: blue" lang=3D"EN=
-US"></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: blue" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span=
></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: =
blue" lang=3D"EN-GB">Always keen on EP sinks. :)<br><br>I&#39;d be keen to =
see weaker but rankable OOC CS regardless of Namer changes.=A0 (Whose CS co=
uld be gruntier if nothing else).<br>
<br>One note though... Celestial is elemental isn&#39;t it?=A0 Light and Da=
rk are elements...</span></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: =
navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 1:25 PM=
, Jim Arona &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ji=
m.arona@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D=
"EN-GB">=A0</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">I propose a change to the curre=
nt counterspell conventions.</span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"=
EN-GB"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">For non-Namers, there are two d=
ifferences. </span><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB"></span></=
p></div>

<ol type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">Out of college counterspells a=
re rankable as if they were Special Knowledge spells</span></li>
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">The bonus to Magic Resistance =
with respect to the College and body of knowledge is 10 +1/Rank.</span></li=
>
</ol>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">For Namers, the differences are=
</span></p></div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">They no longer have college cou=
nterspells, instead they have counterspells that affect branches:</span></p=
>
</div>
<ol type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">Thaumaturgy, Elemental, Celest=
ial, and Entity. This means that they will have 8 normal=A0counterspells. <=
/span></li>

<li class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39=
;serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">The bonus to Magic Resistance =
with respect to the Branch and body of knowledge is 10+1/Rank.</span></li><=
/ol>

<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: &#39;Georgia&#39;, &#39;=
serif&#39;; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0Discuss.</span></p></div></d=
iv>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB">=A0</span></p></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div><br>

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