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It is my proposal and it is, after some amendment, that:
Non-Namer Adepts may Rank counterspells by college and body of knowledge
(i.e. 2 counterspells per college, General Knowledgeand Special Knowledge),
but that the bonus from the counterspell to be 10 + 1/Rank.
Namers may Rank counterspells by branch, with Celestial being considered a
branch of magic, so that there are four groups: Thaumaturgies, Elementals,
Celestials and Entities. Yes, I know, Celestial is one college, but the
proposal treats them as a branch for balance reasons.
So, for Namers only, there are 8 counterspells, GK Thaumaturgy CS, SK
Thaumaturgy CS, GK Elemental CS, etc.
When a Namer casts a 'branch' counterspell, they identify the college in th=
e
branch to be effected. Thus, a Namer casts a Thaumaturgy SK counterspell on
the ground, and names it Mind College. Mind Mages standing in the area of
that counterspell cannot cast from their Special Knowledge, but no other
college (or body of knowledge) is affected. Everyone standing in the area
increases their MR vs Mind College SK by 10+ Rank in the Thaumaturgy SK
counterspell.
For the purposes of conversion, the Exp. Mult.s of branch counterspells wil=
l
be tripled (GK Exp. Mult. 300, SK Exp.Mult.600), time and Experience to be
refunded which will release about 85K Experience and about 3.5 years of
training time. Or time spent lolling around on a tropical
island sipping cocktails out of coconut shells.
The reason why:
A Rank 0 counterspell provides a 30 point bonus. This is ridiculously high.
My example assumes a cast chance of 70% for an NPC Necromancer, who attempt=
s
to cast Hand of Death (binary effect, resist for no effect) on a starting
character with MR of 15. Without a counterspell, the Necromancer has a 62%
chance of having the spell take effect. With a SK Necro counterspell, the
spell only takes effect 42% of the time. It seems unlikely that anyone woul=
d
use this sort of spell, for all that it's quite cheap to advance.
On a high level character, a 30 point bonus to MR is likely to take them
over 100%, which has obvious concerns. Given that counterspells cost a
pittance to buy, and are readily available, a sensible player will have
quite a few.
On the one hand, counterspells are important things to have, and, from a
balance point of view, rather nice because they are narrow in bandwidth. On
the other hand, they give the afore-mentioned enormous bonus. And, of
course, it only gets higher if a Namer is a member of the party.
There are only three mechanics that I want to change.
1. Reduce the MR from counterspells to 10+1/Rank.
2. The branch counterspells to a) reduce the ridiculous amount of
bookkeeping needed to maintain a sensible counterspell list (32 is just
dumb) and b) to make it easier to advance their counterspells
3. Allow non-Namer Adepts to Rank counterspells.
Pretty sure that's everything. Others will probably jump in with things I'v=
e
missed.
On 20 June 2010 01:00, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> No apology needed Dylan.
>
> Misunderstandings are useful when communicated as they lead to
> clarifications.
>
>
>
> I returned from Australia to find a plethora of emails about counters.
>
> It would appear that many people think the current counters need
> improvements.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately I am yet to understand the issue, or issues, caused by
> counterspells in the game.
>
> Fortunately there is at least 4 years to the next rule book for me to
> understand them =96 as I am unlikely to read each of the 100s of emails I
> received.
>
>
>
> I would like to understand the undesirable experiences people are having
> due to the current rules on counterspells. And I would like to understand
> the experiences being advocated =96 I think I would find prose easier to
> understand than =93rules speak=94.
>
>
>
> It seems the ideas being suggested have merit, I just cannot yet visualiz=
e
> how my experience of the game would improve if they were adopted, and I
> don=92t know if the various ideas are all intended to address the same is=
sue
> in the game. And I find it almost impossible in such a context to know if
> the proposed solution is the best solution (or group of solutions) to
> achieve the desired changes in the game.
>
>
>
> As an absolute bore, I reminisce that we did have a system whereby the Go=
ds
> had to agree that there was an issue before discussing the solutions. It
> seemed silly at the time although I still find it useful to be clear on t=
he
> improvement each proposed solution is intended to achieve.
>
>
>
> I would be much obliged if someone who does understand the undesirable
> (current) experiences, the desired experiences and how they will improve =
the
> game could compile these into cogent lists. My hope would be that a group=
of
> integrated suggestions will evolve into a meta-improvement of the game.
>
>
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Ian
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf O=
f
> *RPer 4eva
> *Sent:* Saturday, June 19, 2010 11:47 PM
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Ruleset Issues, was Counterspell proposal
>
>
>
> Sorry if I misunderstood but I thought some of the posts said that even a
> rank 0 could get people above 100% MR. Thats certainly not at the low end=
of
> the game.
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There is no focus on the high end of the game, and never has been, Dylan.
> It's about the size of the bonus.
>
> Assuming a 70% base chance, and 15 MR the chance of the spell being avoid=
ed
> or failing is 40%. If you have a Rank 0 counterspell on, that chance is 6=
2%,
> which means that the caster would have a way less than even chance of
> getting the spell to stick. Counterspells give a beginning character twic=
e
> the MR that they start with 15=3D>45, and they go up from there.
>
> I don't understand where you have derived the notion that this is about
> what happens at the high end of the game.
>
> On 17 June 2010 18:20, RPer 4eva <msnoverflow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've just skimmed most of the arguements but I'm wondering if it focus's
> too much on the high end. I don't think we should reduce the MR because a
> few people at the high ends can get over a 100% MR. Most people at bunny,
> low, medium and I suspect a lot at high don't go over 100% MR with a curr=
ent
> level 0 CS. My namer doesn't go to 100% with any MR with her rank 6
> counterspells. Can we use more standard levels for talking about MR rathe=
r
> than the few rares. If we debated armor in the same context I suspect tha=
t
> the extremes have far more armour than we might like in general. Probably
> also too much damage. Doesn't mean everyone should suffer. Maybe just be =
a
> little more careful about what is given to them to allow them insane stat=
s.
>
>
>
> Dylan
>
>
>
>
>
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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">It is my proposal and it is, after some a=
mendment, t</font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">hat: </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Non-Namer Adepts may Rank counterspells b=
y college and body of knowledge (i.e. 2 counterspells per college, General =
Knowledgeand Special Knowledge), but that the bonus from the counterspell t=
o be 10 + 1/Rank.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Namers may Rank counterspells by branch, =
with Celestial being considered a branch of magic, so that there are four g=
roups: Thaumaturgies, Elementals, Celestials and Entities. Yes, I know, Cel=
estial is one college, but the proposal treats them as a branch for balance=
reasons.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">So, for Namers only, there are 8 counters=
pells, GK Thaumaturgy CS, SK Thaumaturgy CS, GK Elemental CS, etc.</font></=
div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">When a Namer casts a 'branch' cou=
nterspell, they identify the college in the branch to be effected. Thus, a =
Namer casts a Thaumaturgy SK counterspell on the ground, and names it Mind =
College. Mind Mages standing in the area of that counterspell cannot cast f=
rom their Special Knowledge, but no other college (or body of knowledge) is=
affected. Everyone standing in the area increases their MR vs Mind College=
SK by 10+ Rank in the Thaumaturgy SK counterspell.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">For the purposes of conversion, the Exp. =
Mult.s of branch counterspells will be tripled (GK Exp. Mult. 300, SK Exp.M=
ult.600), time and Experience to be refunded which will release about 85K E=
xperience and about 3.5 years of training time. Or time spent lolling aroun=
d on a=A0tropical island=A0sipping=A0cocktails out of coconut shells.</font=
></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">The reason why:</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">A Rank 0 counterspell provides a 30 point bonus=
. This is ridiculously high. My example assumes a cast chance of 70% for an=
NPC Necromancer, who attempts to cast=A0Hand of Death (binary effect, resi=
st for no effect)=A0on a starting character with MR of 15. Without a counte=
rspell, the Necromancer has a 62% chance of having the spell take effect. W=
ith a SK Necro counterspell, the spell only takes effect 42% of the time. I=
t seems unlikely that anyone would use this sort of spell, for all that it&=
#39;s quite cheap to advance.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">On a high level character, a 30 point bonus to =
MR is likely to take them over 100%, which has obvious concerns. Given that=
counterspells cost a pittance to buy, and are readily available, a sensibl=
e player will have quite a few.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">On the one hand, counterspells are important th=
ings to have, and, from a balance point of view, rather nice because they a=
re narrow in bandwidth. On the other hand, they give=A0the afore-mentioned=
=A0enormous bonus. And, of course, it only gets higher if a Namer is a memb=
er of the party. </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Georgia">There are only three mechanics that I want to c=
hange.</font></div>
<ol>
<li><font face=3D"Georgia">Reduce the MR from counterspells to 10+1/Rank.</=
font></li>
<li><font face=3D"Georgia">The branch counterspells to a) reduce the ridicu=
lous amount of bookkeeping needed to maintain a sensible counterspell list =
(32 is just dumb) and b) to make it easier to advance their counterspells</=
font></li>
<li><font face=3D"Georgia">Allow=A0 non-Namer Adepts to Rank counterspells.=
</font></li></ol>
<p><font face=3D"Georgia">Pretty sure that's everything. Others will pr=
obably jump in with things I've missed.</font></p><font face=3D"Georgia=
"></font>
<div>=A0=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 June 2010 01:00, Ian Wood <span dir=3D"ltr=
"><<a href=3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>><=
/span> wrote:=20
<div>=A0</div>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"blue" link=3D"blue">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">No apology need=
ed Dylan.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Misunderstandin=
gs are useful when communicated as they lead to clarifications.</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I returned from=
Australia to find a plethora of emails about counters. </span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It would appear=
that many people think the current counters need improvements.</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Unfortunately I=
am yet to understand the issue, or issues, caused by counterspells in the =
game. </span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fortunately the=
re is at least 4 years to the next rule book for me to understand them =96 =
as I am unlikely to read each of the 100s of emails I received.</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would like to=
understand the undesirable experiences people are having due to the curren=
t rules on counterspells. And I would like to understand the experiences be=
ing advocated =96 I think I would find prose easier to understand than =93r=
ules speak=94.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It seems the id=
eas being suggested have merit, I just cannot yet visualize how my experien=
ce of the game would improve if they were adopted, and I don=92t know if th=
e various ideas are all intended to address the same issue in the game. And=
I find it almost impossible in such a context to know if the proposed solu=
tion is the best solution (or group of solutions) to achieve the desired ch=
anges in the game.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As an absolute =
bore, I reminisce that we did have a system whereby the Gods had to agree t=
hat there was an issue before discussing the solutions. It seemed silly at =
the time although I still find it useful to be clear on the improvement eac=
h proposed solution is intended to achieve.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would be much=
obliged if someone who does understand the undesirable (current) experienc=
es, the desired experiences and how they will improve the game could compil=
e these into cogent lists. My hope would be that a group of integrated sugg=
estions will evolve into a meta-improvement of the game.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Many thanks in =
advance,</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ian</span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><fon=
t size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"F=
ONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></font>=
</b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">=
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" =
target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:=
bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>RPer 4eva=20
<div><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 1=
9, 2010 11:47 PM </div>
<div class=3D"im">
<div><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:=
dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a></div>
<div><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Rule=
set Issues, was Counterspell proposal</div></div></span></font>
<p></p></p></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Sorry if I misundersto=
od but I thought some of the posts said that even a rank 0 could get people=
above 100% MR. Thats certainly not at the low end of the game.</span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Jim Arona <<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">There is no focus on the high end of th=
e game, and never has been, Dylan. It's about the size of the bonus. </=
span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FON=
T-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Assuming a 70% base chance, and 15 MR t=
he chance of the spell being avoided or failing is 40%. If you have a Rank =
0 counterspell on, that chance is 62%, which means that the caster would ha=
ve a way less than even chance of getting the spell to stick. Counterspells=
give a beginning character twice the MR that they start with 15=3D>45, =
and they go up from there. </span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I don=
9;t understand where you have derived the notion that this is about what ha=
ppens at the high end of the game.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">On 17 June 2010 18:20, RPer 4eva <<a href=3D"mailt=
o:msnoverflow@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">msnoverflow@gmail.com</a>> wr=
ote:</span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I've just skimmed most of the arguements but I=
9;m wondering if it focus's too much on the high end. I don't think=
we should reduce the MR because a few people at the high ends can get over=
a 100% MR. Most people at bunny, low, medium and I suspect a lot at high d=
on't go over 100% MR with a current level 0 CS. My namer doesn't go=
to 100% with any MR with her rank 6 counterspells. Can we use more standar=
d levels for talking about MR rather than the few rares. If we debated armo=
r in the same context I suspect that the extremes have far more armour than=
we might like in general. Probably also too much damage. Doesn't mean =
everyone should suffer. Maybe just be a little more careful about what is g=
iven to them to allow them insane stats.</span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p></div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Dylan</span></font></p></div></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p></div></div></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p></div></div></div></div></blockq=
uote></div>
<div>=A0</div>
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