Subject[dq] EP Vote
FromNeil Davies
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 15:04:02 +1300
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Hi all,

What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new characters?  Was
it approved?

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Hi all,<br><br>What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new =
characters?=A0 Was it approved?<br><br>

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Subject[dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromNeil Davies
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 15:08:00 +1300
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That should be an easy answer.

I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify things.

The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we know.
- OverStrength DM only applies to MC
- Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M

The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down the
number of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV (for Melee
and Close) instead of 2.

The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different healer
penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:
- Ranged: no healer penalty
- Melee : some penalty
- Close : higher penalty.

I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it
simplified by either of the following
(1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close combat
penalty.
(2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for
non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make you
feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)

NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, and
having an easy to read character sheet.
Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the
rules.
With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference
in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.

With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM,
2xSC) which is better again.

An objections/support/comments?

Cheers,
Neil.

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<br>
That should be an easy answer.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify things.<br>
<br>
The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we know.<br>
- OverStrength DM only applies to MC<br>- Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M<br><br>
The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down the 
number of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV (for 
Melee and Close) instead of 2.<br>
<br>
The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different healer penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:<br>
- Ranged: no healer penalty<br>
- Melee : some penalty<br>
- Close : higher penalty.<br>
<br>
I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it simplified by either of the following<br>
(1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close combat penalty.<br>
(2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for 
non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it&#39;ll make 
you feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)<br>
<br>
NB: You can probably guess where I&#39;m coming from here: being accurate, and having an easy to read character sheet.<br>Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the rules.<br>
With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.<br>
<br>
With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM, 2xSC) which is better again.<br><br>

An objections/support/comments?<br>

<br>Cheers,<br>Neil.<br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] EP Vote
FromKeith Smith
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 15:27:42 +1300
On 29/01/2011 3:04 p.m., Neil Davies wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new 
> characters? Was it approved?
>
 From the minutes ...

Changing initial experience award for new PCs from 250 to 2,500 – Passed
unanimously

Keith


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SubjectRe: [dq] EP Vote
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 15:36:08 +1300
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But, check with the DM because some give out more.

On 29 January 2011 15:27, Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

> On 29/01/2011 3:04 p.m., Neil Davies wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new characters?
>> Was it approved?
>>
>> From the minutes ...
>
> Changing initial experience award for new PCs from 250 to 2,500 =96 Passe=
d
> unanimously
>
> Keith
>
>
> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --
>

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<font face=3D"georgia,serif">But, check with the DM because some give out m=
ore.<br></font><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 January 2011 15:27, Keith Smith <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz">phaeton@ihug.co.nz</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"im">On 29/01/2011 3:04 p.m., Neil Davies wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Hi all,<br><br>What was the resu=
lt of the vote for changing the EP for new characters? Was it approved?<br>
<br></blockquote></div>From the minutes ...<br><br>Changing initial experie=
nce award for new PCs from 250 to 2,500 =96 Passed<br>unanimously<br><br>Ke=
ith<br><br><br>-- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request=
@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br>
</blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 16:04:19 +1300
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Get rid of it. It isn't the reason that characters who are melee-focused are
not taking Healer, so this rule is doing nothing productive.

On 29 January 2011 15:08, Neil Davies <nsdavies@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different
> healer penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:
> - Ranged: no healer penalty
> - Melee : some penalty
> - Close : higher penalty.
>
> I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it
> simplified by either of the following
> (1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close
> combat penalty.
> (2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for
> non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make you
> feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)
>
> NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, and
> having an easy to read character sheet.
> Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the
> rules.
> With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference
> in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.
>
> With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM,
> 2xSC) which is better again.
>
> An objections/support/comments?
>
> Cheers,
> Neil.
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Get r=
id of it. It isn&#39;t the reason that characters who are melee-focused are=
 not taking Healer, so this rule is doing nothing productive.<br></font><br=
>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 January 2011 15:08, Neil Davies <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nsdavies@gmail.com">nsdavies@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>The remaining spanner in the=
 works is SC, because there are different healer penalties for each of Mele=
e, Close and Ranged:<br>
- Ranged: no healer penalty<br>- Melee : some penalty<br>- Close : higher p=
enalty.<br><br>I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to=
 see it simplified by either of the following<br>(1) Making M and C penalti=
es identical and equal to the current Close combat penalty.<br>
(2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for non-ta=
ctile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it&#39;ll make you fe=
el uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)<br><br>NB: You can probably guess=
 where I&#39;m coming from here: being accurate, and having an easy to read=
 character sheet.<br>
Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the =
rules.<br>With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the d=
ifference in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.<br><br>With a c=
hange in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM, 2xSC) wh=
ich is better again.<br>
<br>An objections/support/comments?<br><br>Cheers,<br><font color=3D"#88888=
8">Neil.<br></font></blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 16:06:18 +1300
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Hi Neil,

 

My thoughts are moderately radical 

I would ditch the Healer modifications as I am after a Game not a Simulation
(simplicity triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).

 

There is also Assassin bonuses and magical buffs, so the character sheet for
my PC Sir Wojer would have lots of columns :-)

 

Instead I have created different character sheets for different situations
(and I print them out before the game) to make the sheet as simple as I like
it to be.

Then all I have to do is reference the correct sheet.

 

Cheers Ian

(why fix a problem when you can remove it?)

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Neil
Davies
Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2011 3:08 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: [dq] Healer SC Penalty

 


That should be an easy answer.

I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify things.

The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we know.
- OverStrength DM only applies to MC
- Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M

The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down the
number of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV (for Melee
and Close) instead of 2.

The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different healer
penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:
- Ranged: no healer penalty
- Melee : some penalty
- Close : higher penalty.

I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it
simplified by either of the following
(1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close combat
penalty.
(2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for
non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make you
feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)

NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, and
having an easy to read character sheet.
Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the
rules.
With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference
in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.

With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM,
2xSC) which is better again.

An objections/support/comments?

Cheers,
Neil.

  _____  

  _____  

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi =
Neil,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>My thoughts are moderately radical =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:18.0pt'><font size=3D2 =
color=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would ditch
the Healer modifications as I am after a Game not a Simulation =
(simplicity
triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There is also Assassin bonuses and =
magical
buffs, so the character sheet for my PC Sir Wojer would have lots of =
columns </span></font><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DWingdings><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Instead I have created different =
character
sheets for different situations (and I print them out before the game) =
to make the
sheet as simple as I like it to be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Then all I have to do is reference =
the
correct sheet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers =
Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>(why fix a problem when you can =
remove
it?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

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size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz
[mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf Of </span></b>Neil
Davies<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 29 =
January 2011
3:08 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> [dq] Healer SC =
Penalty</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
That should be an easy answer.<br>
<br>
I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify =
things.<br>
<br>
The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we =
know.<br>
- OverStrength DM only applies to MC<br>
- Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M<br>
<br>
The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down the =
number
of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV (for Melee and =
Close)
instead of 2.<br>
<br>
The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different =
healer
penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:<br>
- Ranged: no healer penalty<br>
- Melee : some penalty<br>
- Close : higher penalty.<br>
<br>
I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it =
simplified
by either of the following<br>
(1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close =
combat
penalty.<br>
(2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for
non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make =
you feel
uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)<br>
<br>
NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, =
and
having an easy to read character sheet.<br>
Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for =
the
rules.<br>
With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the =
difference in
SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.<br>
<br>
With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, =
2xDM,
2xSC) which is better again.<br>
<br>
An objections/support/comments?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Neil.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3Davgcert color=3D"#000000"><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
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style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>No virus found in this message.<br>
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SubjectRe: [dq] EP Vote
FromIan Wood
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 16:06:18 +1300
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:-)

 

 

  _____  

From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim
Arona
Sent: Saturday, 29 January 2011 3:36 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] EP Vote

 

But, check with the DM because some give out more.

On 29 January 2011 15:27, Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

On 29/01/2011 3:04 p.m., Neil Davies wrote:

Hi all,

What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new characters? Was
it approved?

From the minutes ...

Changing initial experience award for new PCs from 250 to 2,500 - Passed
unanimously

Keith


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color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 29 =
January 2011
3:36 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] EP =
Vote</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3 =
face=3DGeorgia><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Georgia'>But, check with the DM =
because
some give out more.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 29 January 2011 15:27, Keith Smith &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz">phaeton@ihug.co.nz</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On 29/01/2011 3:04 p.m., Neil Davies =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hi all,<br>
<br>
What was the result of the vote for changing the EP for new characters? =
Was it
approved?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>From the minutes ...<br>
<br>
Changing initial experience award for new PCs from 250 to 2,500 &#8211; =
Passed<br>
unanimously<br>
<br>
Keith<br>
<br>
<br>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromKeith Smith
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 19:00:50 +1300
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On 29/01/2011 4:06 p.m., Ian Wood wrote:
>
> Hi Neil,
>
> My thoughts are moderately radical
>
> I would ditch the Healer modifications as I am after a Game not a 
> Simulation (simplicity triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).
>
> There is also Assassin bonuses and magical buffs, so the character 
> sheet for my PC Sir Wojer would have lots of columns J
>
> Instead I have created different character sheets for different 
> situations (and I print them out before the game) to make the sheet as 
> simple as I like it to be.
>
> Then all I have to do is reference the correct sheet.
>
> Cheers Ian
>
> (why fix a problem when you can remove it?)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf 
> Of *Neil Davies
> *Sent:* Saturday, 29 January 2011 3:08 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* [dq] Healer SC Penalty
>
>
> That should be an easy answer.
>
> I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify things.
>
> The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we 
> know.
> - OverStrength DM only applies to MC
> - Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M
>
> The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down 
> the number of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV 
> (for Melee and Close) instead of 2.
>
> The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different 
> healer penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:
> - Ranged: no healer penalty
> - Melee : some penalty
> - Close : higher penalty.
>
> I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it 
> simplified by either of the following
> (1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close 
> combat penalty.
> (2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for 
> non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make 
> you feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)
>
> NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, 
> and having an easy to read character sheet.
> Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for 
> the rules.
> With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the 
> difference in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.
>
> With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 
> 2xDM, 2xSC) which is better again.
>
> An objections/support/comments?
>
It's a pity you can't just tick a status box and have the appropriate 
numbers change - but that would imply the players are keeping their 
character sheets on laptops or IPads during the game.

Or just print the results as Ian does before/after ticking the box.

I was trying to do that once with macro buttons to indicate which armour 
my PC was wearing - is such an option viable?

Keith


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    On 29/01/2011 4:06 p.m., Ian Wood wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:E1Pj191-0003Kb-QP@gromit.sig.net.nz"
      type="cite">
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        <div class="Section1">
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">Hi Neil,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">My thoughts are moderately radical <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left: 18pt;"><font
              color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
                10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;">I would ditch
                the Healer modifications as I am after a Game not a
                Simulation (simplicity
                triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">There is also Assassin bonuses and magical
                buffs, so the character sheet for my PC Sir Wojer would
                have lots of columns </span></font><font color="navy"
              face="Wingdings" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: Wingdings; color: navy;">J</span></font><font
              color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span style="font-size:
                10pt; font-family: Arial; color: navy;"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">Instead I have created different character
                sheets for different situations (and I print them out
                before the game) to make the
                sheet as simple as I like it to be.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">Then all I have to do is reference the
                correct sheet.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">Cheers Ian<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;">(why fix a problem when you can remove
                it?)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" face="Arial" size="2"><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color:
                navy;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <div>
            <div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align: center;"
              align="center"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
                  style="font-size: 12pt;">
                  <hr tabindex="-1" width="100%" align="center" size="2">
                </span></font></div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span
                    style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;
                    font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font
                face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                  font-family: Tahoma;"> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span
                      style="font-weight: bold;">On Behalf Of </span></b>Neil
                  Davies<br>
                  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b>
                  Saturday, 29 January 2011
                  3:08 p.m.<br>
                  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <st1:personname
                    w:st="on"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a></st1:personname><br>
                  <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b>
                  [dq] Healer SC Penalty</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span
                style="font-size: 12pt;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><font
              face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size:
                12pt;"><br>
                That should be an easy answer.<br>
                <br>
                I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to
                simplify things.<br>
                <br>
                The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are
                complex as we know.<br>
                - OverStrength DM only applies to MC<br>
                - Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M<br>
                <br>
                The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by
                bringing down the number
                of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged
                IV (for Melee and Close)
                instead of 2.<br>
                <br>
                The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there
                are different healer
                penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:<br>
                - Ranged: no healer penalty<br>
                - Melee : some penalty<br>
                - Close : higher penalty.<br>
                <br>
                I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would
                like to see it simplified
                by either of the following<br>
                (1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the
                current Close combat
                penalty.<br>
                (2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even
                if only for
                non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged
                empathy, it'll make you feel
                uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)<br>
                <br>
                NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here:
                being accurate, and
                having an easy to read character sheet.<br>
                Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM,
                3xSC) to cater for the
                rules.<br>
                With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC).
                And the difference in
                SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.<br>
                <br>
                With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again
                to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM,
                2xSC) which is better again.<br>
                <br>
                An objections/support/comments?<br>
              </span></font><br>
          </p>
        </div>
      </o:smarttagtype></blockquote>
    <font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">It's a pity you can't
        just tick a status box and have the appropriate numbers change -
        but that would imply the players are keeping their character
        sheets on laptops or IPads during the game.<br>
        <br>
        Or just print the results as Ian does before/after ticking the
        box.<br>
        <br>
        I was trying to do that once with macro buttons to indicate
        which armour my PC was wearing - is such an option viable?<br>
        <br>
        Keith<br>
        <br>
      </font></font>
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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 19:46:13 +1300
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*Healer SC Penalty*
Even assuming players all used digital character sheets, Keith, it's still a
needless complication which does not do anything useful to the game.
Blindly accepting a rule does not make the game model something useful or
inform character behaviour in a way that we want. Mind you, in this case,
removing it doesn't either. \It does remove a needless complication from a
system already rich in needless complications.
*Digital Character Sheets*
As for implying that PCs with laptops have more accurate character
sheets...Well. We both know players with digital character sheets and who
STILL manage not to know what their numbers are.
They are an impediment to play. Some people, for goodness sake, play games
on them. Not a problem in the privacy of your own home, but you wouldn't do
it when entertaining people or something. I find it mortally offensive when
pcs do it during my game and award Experience to reflect this.


On 29 January 2011 19:00, Keith Smith <phaeton@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

>   On 29/01/2011 4:06 p.m., Ian Wood wrote:
>
>  Hi Neil,
>
>
>
> My thoughts are moderately radical
>
> I would ditch the Healer modifications as I am after a Game not a
> Simulation (simplicity triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).
>
>
>
> There is also Assassin bonuses and magical buffs, so the character sheet
> for my PC Sir Wojer would have lots of columns J
>
>
>
> Instead I have created different character sheets for different situations
> (and I print them out before the game) to make the sheet as simple as I like
> it to be.
>
> Then all I have to do is reference the correct sheet.
>
>
>
> Cheers Ian
>
> (why fix a problem when you can remove it?)
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz<dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz>]
> *On Behalf Of *Neil Davies
> *Sent:* Saturday, 29 January 2011 3:08 p.m.
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Subject:* [dq] Healer SC Penalty
>
>
>
>
> That should be an easy answer.
>
> I'd also like to suggest another change to the rules to simplify things.
>
> The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we
> know.
> - OverStrength DM only applies to MC
> - Warrior changes to IV,SC,DM currently only apply to M
>
> The Warrior 3.0 changes help address some of this, by bringing down the
> number of possible DM calculations to 2, and a single Engaged IV (for Melee
> and Close) instead of 2.
>
> The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different
> healer penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:
> - Ranged: no healer penalty
> - Melee : some penalty
> - Close : higher penalty.
>
> I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it
> simplified by either of the following
> (1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close
> combat penalty.
> (2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for
> non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make you
> feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)
>
> NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, and
> having an easy to read character sheet.
> Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the
> rules.
> With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference
> in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.
>
> With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2xDM,
> 2xSC) which is better again.
>
> An objections/support/comments?
>
> It's a pity you can't just tick a status box and have the appropriate
> numbers change - but that would imply the players are keeping their
> character sheets on laptops or IPads during the game.
>
> Or just print the results as Ian does before/after ticking the box.
>
> I was trying to do that once with macro buttons to indicate which armour my
> PC was wearing - is such an option viable?
>
> Keith
>
>

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><u>Healer SC Penalty</u></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Even assuming players all used digital ch=
aracter sheets, Keith, it&#39;s still a needless complication which does no=
t do anything useful to the game. </font></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Blindly accepting=A0a rule does not make =
the game model something useful or inform character=A0behaviour in a way th=
at we want. Mind you, in this case, removing it doesn&#39;t either.=A0\It d=
oes=A0remove a needless complication from a system already rich in needless=
 complications. </font></div>

<div><u>Digital Character Sheets</u></div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">As for implying that PCs with laptops hav=
e more accurate character sheets...Well. We both know players with=A0digita=
l character sheets and who STILL manage not to know what their numbers are.=
 </font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">They are an impediment to play. Some peop=
le, for goodness sake, play games on them. Not a problem in the privacy of =
your own home, but you wouldn&#39;t do it=A0when entertaining people or som=
ething. I find it mortally offensive when pcs do it during my game and awar=
d Experience to reflect this.</font></div>

<div><br>=A0</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 29 January 2011 19:00, Keith Smith <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:phaeton@ihug.co.nz">phaeton@ihug.co.nz</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
<div>
<div></div>
<div class=3D"h5">On 29/01/2011 4:06 p.m., Ian Wood wrote:=20
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Hi Neil,</span>=
</font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My thoughts are=
 moderately radical </span></font></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-LEFT: 18pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" siz=
e=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT=
-SIZE: 10pt">I would ditch the Healer modifications as I am after a Game no=
t a Simulation (simplicity triumphs over complexity and stuff logic).</span=
></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">There is also A=
ssassin bonuses and magical buffs, so the character sheet for my PC Sir Woj=
er would have lots of columns </span></font><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2"=
 face=3D"Wingdings"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: navy; FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt">J</span></font><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"=
><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></=
font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Instead I have =
created different character sheets for different situations (and I print th=
em out before the game) to make the sheet as simple as I like it to be.</sp=
an></font></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Then all I have=
 to do is reference the correct sheet.</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cheers Ian</spa=
n></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(why fix a prob=
lem when you can remove it?)</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=A0</span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center"><fon=
t size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"F=
ONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></font>=
</b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; FO=
NT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">=
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT=
: bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Neil Davies<br>
<b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, 29 January =
2011 3:08 p.m.<br><b><span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br><b><=
span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> [dq] Healer SC Penalty=
</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=A0</span></font></p>
<p style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><br>That should be an =
easy answer.<br><br>I&#39;d also like to suggest another change to the rule=
s to simplify things.<br>
<br>The Rules for calculating IV, SC and DM for a weapon are complex as we =
know.<br>- OverStrength DM only applies to MC<br>- Warrior changes to IV,SC=
,DM currently only apply to M<br><br>The Warrior 3.0 changes help address s=
ome of this, by bringing down the number of possible DM calculations to 2, =
and a single Engaged IV (for Melee and Close) instead of 2.<br>
<br>The remaining spanner in the works is SC, because there are different h=
ealer penalties for each of Melee, Close and Ranged:<br>- Ranged: no healer=
 penalty<br>- Melee : some penalty<br>- Close : higher penalty.<br><br>
I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it simplif=
ied by either of the following<br>(1) Making M and C penalties identical an=
d equal to the current Close combat penalty.<br>(2) As above, but adding a =
Ranged penalty as well - even if only for non-tactile empathy? ( I figure i=
f you want ranged empathy, it&#39;ll make you feel uncomfortable shooting a=
 bow as well!)<br>
<br>NB: You can probably guess where I&#39;m coming from here: being accura=
te, and having an easy to read character sheet.<br>Currently you need 8 dif=
ferent columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for the rules.<br>With Warrior 3=
.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the difference in SC is only =
a few percent at high healer ranks.<br>
<br>With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 2x=
DM, 2xSC) which is better again.<br><br>An objections/support/comments?<br>=
</span></font><br></p></div></blockquote></div></div><font size=3D"3"><font=
 face=3D"Times New Roman">It&#39;s a pity you can&#39;t just tick a status =
box and have the appropriate numbers change - but that would imply the play=
ers are keeping their character sheets on laptops or IPads during the game.=
<br>
<br>Or just print the results as Ian does before/after ticking the box.<br>=
<br>I was trying to do that once with macro buttons to indicate which armou=
r my PC was wearing - is such an option viable?<br><br>Keith<br><br></font>=
</font></div>
</blockquote></div><br>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromJacqui Smith
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 22:06:27 +1300
> I think this is unnecessarily complicated, and would like to see it 
> simplified by either of the following
> (1) Making M and C penalties identical and equal to the current Close 
> combat penalty.
> (2) As above, but adding a Ranged penalty as well - even if only for 
> non-tactile empathy? ( I figure if you want ranged empathy, it'll make 
> you feel uncomfortable shooting a bow as well!)
>
> NB: You can probably guess where I'm coming from here: being accurate, 
> and having an easy to read character sheet.
> Currently you need 8 different columns (2xIV, 3xDM, 3xSC) to cater for 
> the rules.
> With Warrior 3.0, this reduces to 6 (1xIV, 2xDM, 3xSC). And the 
> difference in SC is only a few percent at high healer ranks.
>
> With a change in Healer penalty, this would reduce again to 5 (1xIV, 
> 2xDM, 2xSC) which is better again.
>

Okay, time for an admission.... For several years I didn't realise any 
penalty existed for healers with tactile empathy. And I don't think 
anyone noticed.

Given that using Healer empathy either involves the use of fatigue 
(non-tactile) or laying on hands (tactile) both of which imply a 
conscious effort, which you're not doing when you busy trying to cleave 
somebody's skull, I don't see that a penalty actually makes a lot of 
sense. Not unless learning Healer turns an adventurer into a wuss who 
"feels the pain" for the thing being struck. And even that doesn't make 
sense when the thing you're hitting is undead or an unnatural 
abomination - like it usually is.

Get rid of it altogether.

Jacqui


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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromKeith Smith
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 22:08:32 +1300
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On 29/01/2011 7:46 p.m., Jim Arona wrote:
> _Healer SC Penalty_
> Even assuming players all used digital character sheets, Keith, it's 
> still a needless complication which does not do anything useful to the 
> game.
> Blindly accepting a rule does not make the game model something useful 
> or inform character behaviour in a way that we want. Mind you, in this 
> case, removing it doesn't either. \It does remove a needless 
> complication from a system already rich in needless complications.
> _Digital Character Sheets_
> As for implying that PCs with laptops have more accurate character 
> sheets...Well. We both know players with digital character sheets and 
> who STILL manage not to know what their numbers are.
> They are an impediment to play. Some people, for goodness sake, play 
> games on them. Not a problem in the privacy of your own home, but you 
> wouldn't do it when entertaining people or something. I find it 
> mortally offensive when pcs do it during my game and award Experience 
> to reflect this.
>
(I can see why people type before the quote even though, to me the 
thread looks wierd afterwards - but that's just me ... ignore that)

Definately agree with you with the distraction value of laptops during 
gaming sessions and may be implementing something similar in the future.

Anyway, it just seems to me that changing the rules just to make it 
easier for electronic calculations keeps reminding me of what happened 
to D&D and how Fourth Ed evolved.  Not sure that's a track we want to go 
down to be honest, in my opinion.

However, I do see Neil's point and if a rule is too complex for players 
to understand and use then yes, it probably should be changed.  We do, 
after all, want new players to quickly get to grips with at least the 
basics instead of tripping over them all the time.  It's not fun to 
constantly trip.

As for the Healer with non-tactile empathy - is it true that once you 
have non-tactile empathy .. that's it?  Or can the healer turn off the 
non-tactile and fall back to tactile by not spending the FT point?  If 
it's the former then just turn on a flag in the spreadsheet that 
modifies the strike chances accordingly since they will always be that 
way (and I should adjust Phaeton's spreadsheet accordingly - not that he 
actually hits anything in melee *g*)

Which leads to another thought, does the reduction to strike chance with 
tactile empathy still apply when hitting undead?  I presume so according 
to the rules but I'm wondering if they should be an exception?

Keith


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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
    On 29/01/2011 7:46 p.m., Jim Arona wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:E1Pj4Zh-0008Fm-Mh@gromit.sig.net.nz"
      type="cite">
      <div><font face="georgia,serif"><u>Healer SC Penalty</u></font></div>
      <div><font face="georgia,serif">Even assuming players all used
          digital character sheets, Keith, it's still a needless
          complication which does not do anything useful to the game. </font></div>
      <div><font face="georgia,serif">Blindly accepting&nbsp;a rule does not
          make the game model something useful or inform
          character&nbsp;behaviour in a way that we want. Mind you, in this
          case, removing it doesn't either.&nbsp;\It does&nbsp;remove a needless
          complication from a system already rich in needless
          complications. </font></div>
      <div><u>Digital Character Sheets</u></div>
      <div><font face="georgia,serif">As for implying that PCs with
          laptops have more accurate character sheets...Well. We both
          know players with&nbsp;digital character sheets and who STILL
          manage not to know what their numbers are. </font></div>
      <div><font face="georgia,serif">They are an impediment to play.
          Some people, for goodness sake, play games on them. Not a
          problem in the privacy of your own home, but you wouldn't do
          it&nbsp;when entertaining people or something. I find it mortally
          offensive when pcs do it during my game and award Experience
          to reflect this.</font></div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    (I can see why people type before the quote even though, to me the
    thread looks wierd afterwards - but that's just me ... ignore that)<br>
    <br>
    Definately agree with you with the distraction value of laptops
    during gaming sessions and may be implementing something similar in
    the future.<br>
    <br>
    Anyway, it just seems to me that changing the rules just to make it
    easier for electronic calculations keeps reminding me of what
    happened to D&amp;D and how Fourth Ed evolved.&nbsp; Not sure that's a
    track we want to go down to be honest, in my opinion.<br>
    <br>
    However, I do see Neil's point and if a rule is too complex for
    players to understand and use then yes, it probably should be
    changed.&nbsp; We do, after all, want new players to quickly get to grips
    with at least the basics instead of tripping over them all the
    time.&nbsp; It's not fun to constantly trip.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    As for the Healer with non-tactile empathy - is it true that once
    you have non-tactile empathy .. that's it?&nbsp; Or can the healer turn
    off the non-tactile and fall back to tactile by not spending the FT
    point?&nbsp; If it's the former then just turn on a flag in the
    spreadsheet that modifies the strike chances accordingly since they
    will always be that way (and I should adjust Phaeton's spreadsheet
    accordingly - not that he actually hits anything in melee *g*) <br>
    <br>
    Which leads to another thought, does the reduction to strike chance
    with tactile empathy still apply when hitting undead?&nbsp; I presume so
    according to the rules but I'm wondering if they should be an
    exception?&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Keith<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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SubjectRe: [dq] Healer SC Penalty
FromJim Arona
DateSat, 29 Jan 2011 23:04:38 +1300
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"Anyway, it just seems to me that changing the rules just to make it easier
for electronic calculations keeps reminding me of what happened to D&D and
how Fourth Ed evolved.  Not sure that's a track we want to go down to be
honest, in my opinion."

Many years ago, Strike Chance was the main focus of the game. Damage was
also important, but at that time, Prot values on armour were 4 - 8, and you
never really saw anyone who had more armour than that. Anyway, at that time,
the Healer subtraction from SC was a substantial fraction. Nowadays, it is
barely noticeable. The penalty does not encourage characters who are focused
on melee to avoid the Healer Skill. Whether they forget to factor it in, or
for other reasons, it is not creating the behaviour we want.
Therefore, the rule is a complication which does nothing except justify a
certain degree of rules expertise. If it is not contributing to a better
gaming environment, then it needs to go. D&D 4.0 has problems that spring
from other things than a desire to make it easier to calculate.

"As for the Healer with non-tactile empathy - is it true that once you have
non-tactile empathy .. that's it?  Or can the healer turn off the
non-tactile and fall back to tactile by not spending the FT point?  If it's
the former then just turn on a flag in the spreadsheet that modifies the
strike chances accordingly since they will always be that way (and I should
adjust Phaeton's spreadsheet accordingly - not that he actually hits
anything in melee *g*) "
Choosing to be tactile or non-tactile is a critical (i.e. once only)
decision which affects the character for the rest of their existence. Well,
barring interventions. Any Healer can Empathise by touch, it doesn't cost
FT. If you can Healer Empathise at range, it costs 1 FT.
I suppose your point is that no one would ever choose non-tactile Empathy
Healer if there is no penalty. Maybe there could be a penalty for
non-tactile Healers?

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<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">&quot;Anyway, it just seems to me that ch=
anging the rules just to make it easier for electronic calculations keeps r=
eminding me of what happened to D&amp;D and how Fourth Ed evolved.=A0 Not s=
ure that&#39;s a track we want to go down to be honest, in my opinion.&quot=
;</font></div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Many years ago, Strike Chance was the mai=
n focus of the game. Damage was also important, but at that time, Prot valu=
es on armour were 4 - 8, and you never really saw anyone who had more armou=
r than that. Anyway, at that time, the Healer subtraction from SC was a sub=
stantial fraction. Nowadays, it is barely noticeable. The penalty does not =
encourage characters who are focused on melee to avoid the Healer Skill. Wh=
ether they forget to factor it in, or for other reasons, it is not creating=
 the behaviour we want.</font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Therefore, the rule is a complication whi=
ch does nothing except justify a certain degree of rules expertise. If it i=
s not contributing to a better gaming environment, then it needs to go. D&a=
mp;D 4.0 has problems that spring from other things than a desire to make i=
t easier to calculate.</font></div>

<p><font face=3D"georgia,serif">&quot;As for the Healer with non-tactile em=
pathy - is it true that once you have non-tactile empathy .. that&#39;s it?=
=A0 Or can the healer turn off the non-tactile and fall back to tactile by =
not spending the FT point?=A0 If it&#39;s the former then just turn on a fl=
ag in the spreadsheet that modifies the strike chances accordingly since th=
ey will always be that way (and I should adjust Phaeton&#39;s spreadsheet a=
ccordingly - not that he actually hits anything in melee *g*) &quot;</font>=
</p>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Choosing to be tactile or non-tactile is =
a critical (i.e. once only) decision which affects the character for the re=
st of their existence. Well, barring interventions.=A0Any Healer can=A0Empa=
thise by touch, it doesn&#39;t cost FT. If you can Healer Empathise at rang=
e, it costs 1 FT. </font></div>

<div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I suppose your point is that no one would=
 ever choose non-tactile Empathy Healer if there is no penalty. Maybe there=
 could be a penalty for non-tactile Healers?</font></div>

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