| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Michael Parkinson |
| Date | Sun, 16 Dec 2012 23:37:28 +0000 |
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No more taxes!! No more taxes!!
Which is to say... I really hope that the clear majority of GMs & players d=
o support a mechanism for eliminating racial taxes at a cost that is not un=
duly inequitable. Thanks to Ian for the illuminating table of estimated ma=
ximum gains - I now view it not as a racial tax but a mortgage ... which I'=
d like to pay off ASAP.
Jin you surprise me, I thought it was only namby-pamby milk-sop democrats t=
hat were in favor of increasing taxes. I don't know if the racial tax was =
intended to be a motivation to be human ... maybe it was more of a consolat=
ion prize if everybody really wants to be non-human but failed the roll. P=
ersonally, my current human character was designed as a particular CHARACTE=
R and so never envisioned as Elf, hobbit, giant, dwarf, shape-changer, or t=
he odd what-the-hell-is-that that crops up in the Guild - the requirement t=
hat he was human was character-driven, never number-crunching.
It's an undeniable fact: even [non-shifter, non-giant] non-humans DO have p=
ermanent advantages from day-1 (eg, "impervious to the special abilities of=
the lesser Undead") and optional talents, especially vision, that a human =
doesn't get without a college. But after a while that advantage is paid fo=
r, even with interest, and still one keeps paying ...
Conversely, if we measure humans solely by what they can't do, then my huma=
n non-mage hasn't been human since his 5th adventure or thereabouts. Nor i=
s there anyway, as GM, I'm going to give out permanent abilities but say th=
at advantage forces the character to pay an "x%" racial tax because they ar=
e no longer standard out-of-the-box humans (or hobbits or ...). And what G=
M of moderate experience has not weaselled their write-ups with "quasi-raci=
al" or analogous terms to ensuring a particular benefit is still function a=
fter resurrection, etc
[Sorry if mailing too vague or wordy! Need coffee ...]
Michael Parkinson (Ph 3737 599 ext 85858)
m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz<mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>
Mathematics, Statistics & Physics Subject Librarian
http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject-guides/math/mathsub1.htm
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On Behalf Of Jim=
Arona
Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2012 12:11 p.m.
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz
Subject: Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax
I wasn't at the Guild Meeting, so I wasn't there to hear this.
I do not support the idea of reducing Racial Taxes. In fact, the only sugge=
stion I would entertain is increasing them.
The reason is that experience is earnt in a linear fashion. On the other ha=
nd, it is spent, in alsmost all cases, in an exponential fashion. This is c=
ertainly the case for Magic, it is my analysis that the costs for Skills an=
d Weapons increase at a rate congruent with a Fibonacci sequence, which is,=
in any case, approximately exponential in nature.
This means that the cost of advancing increases at higher Ranks, and theref=
ore the effect is, when compared against a linear rate of income, that the =
inhuman will only be a few Ranks behind.
Assume a human has advanced a 100 Exp. Mult. spell to Rank 20 at a cost of =
21,000 Experience.
A shapechanger would only be able to spend 15,000 Experience. It costs 15,3=
00 Experience to raise the spell to Rank 17.
This is a rate, which means that because of the increasing costs of Ranking=
, the distance that a shapechanger will lag behind a human is going to be a=
bout 3 Ranks.
So, my objection is that the advantage of being human is nothing other than=
this, and I don't see it as being a particularly powerful motivation to be=
human. Any process that diminishes the one advantage (such as it is) that =
humans can have is an in-game motivation to choose something else.
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">No more taxes!! No more taxes!!<o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">Which is to say… I really hope that the cle=
ar majority of GMs & players do support a mechanism for eliminating rac=
ial
taxes at a cost that is not unduly inequitable. </span></font><font =
size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Verdana","sans-serif"">Thanks to Ian for the illuminating=
table of estimated maximum gains — I now view it not as a racial
tax but a mortgage … which I’d like to pay off ASAP.<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">Jin you surprise me, I thought it was only namby-=
pamby milk-sop democrats that were in favor of increasing taxes.
I don’t know if the racial tax was <i><span style=3D"font-styl=
e:italic">intended</span></i> to be a motivation to be human … maybe =
it was more of a consolation prize if everybody really wants to be non-huma=
n but failed the roll. Personally, my current human
character was designed as a particular CHARACTER and so never envisioned a=
s Elf, hobbit, giant, dwarf, shape-changer, or the odd
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">what-the-hell-is-that </span></i>that =
crops up in the Guild — the requirement that he was human was charact=
er-driven, never number-crunching.
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">It’s an undeniable fact: even [non-shifter,=
non-giant]
</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">non-humans DO =
have permanent advantages from day-1 (eg, “</span></font><font size=
=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"V=
erdana","sans-serif"">impervious
to the special abilities of the lesser Undead”) and optional talents=
, especially vision, that a human doesn’t get without a college. &nbs=
p;But after a while that advantage is paid for, even with interest, and sti=
ll one keeps paying …<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">Conversely, if we measure humans solely by what t=
hey
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">can’t</span></b> do, then my huma=
n non-mage hasn’t been human since his 5th adventure or thereabouts.&=
nbsp; Nor is there anyway, as GM, I’m going to give out permanent abi=
lities but say that advantage forces the character to pay
an “x%” racial tax because they are no longer standard out-of-=
the-box humans (or hobbits or …). And what GM of moderate exper=
ience has not weaselled their write-ups with “quasi-racial” or =
analogous terms to ensuring a particular benefit is still function
after resurrection, etc<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><font size=3D"2" face=
=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana"=
;,"sans-serif"">[Sorry if mailing too vague or wordy! Need coffee=
…]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Micha=
el Parkinson (Ph 3737 599 ext 85858)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz"><font =
size=3D"2" color=3D"blue" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:blue">m.parkin=
son@auckland.ac.nz</span></font></a></span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"=
Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",&q=
uot;sans-serif""><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Mathe=
matics, Statistics & Physics Subject Librarian<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject=
-guides/math/mathsub1.htm"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"blue" face=3D"Verdana"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans=
-serif";color:blue">http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject-guides/m=
ath/mathsub1.htm</span></font></a></span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Ve=
rdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",&quo=
t;sans-serif"">
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
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<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-se=
rif";font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D=
"Tahoma"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"T=
ahoma","sans-serif"">
dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] <b><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold">On Behalf Of
</span></b>Jim Arona<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 13 December =
2012 12:11 p.m.<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Changing R=
acial Tax<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif"">I wasn't a=
t the Guild Meeting, so I wasn't there to hear this.<br>
<br>
I do not support the idea of reducing Racial Taxes. In fact, the only sugge=
stion I would entertain is increasing them.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
The reason is that experience is earnt in a linear fashion. On the other ha=
nd, it is spent, in alsmost all cases, in an exponential fashion. This is c=
ertainly the case for Magic, it is my analysis that the costs for Skills an=
d Weapons increase at a rate congruent
with a Fibonacci sequence, which is, in any case, approximately exponentia=
l in nature.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
This means that the cost of advancing increases at higher Ranks, and theref=
ore the effect is, when compared against a linear rate of income, that the =
inhuman will only be a few Ranks behind.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
Assume a human has advanced a 100 Exp. Mult. spell to Rank 20 at a cost of =
21,000 Experience.<br>
A shapechanger would only be able to spend 15,000 Experience. It costs 15,3=
00 Experience to raise the spell to Rank 17.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
This is a rate, which means that because of the increasing costs of Ranking=
, the distance that a shapechanger will lag behind a human is going to be a=
bout 3 Ranks.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Georgia","serif""><br>
So, my objection is that the advantage of being human is nothing <strong><b=
><font face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"font-family:"Georgia",&quo=
t;serif"">other than this</span></font></b></strong>, and I don't see =
it as being a particularly powerful motivation to be human.
Any process that diminishes the one advantage (such as it is) that humans =
can have is an in-game motivation to choose something else.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
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| |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 13:58:56 +1300 |
--f46d042fd898bf522c04d101e2a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Michael Parkinson < m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > I don=92t know if the racial tax was *intended* to be a motivation to be > human =85 > It seems probable, given the date DQ was originally written, that it was a deliberate design consideration, as this was certainly true of DQ's contemporary, AD&De1; humans are the baseline, while demi-humans have advantages (special abilities, multi-classing), but major disadvantages too (hard-cap level limits). Per Gygax (in Dragon mag): "...some of those racial types give short-term advantages to the players who choose them, but in the long run, these same characters are at an equal disadvantage when compared to human characters with the same number of experience points. This was, in fact, designed into the game... [DM's who remove restrictions] will eventually consign the campaign as a whole to one in which the only races will be non-human". Gygax goes further in the DM's guide stating that the game "features humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in an illogical game. From a design standpoint it provides the sound groundwork. From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most readily usable assumptions. From a participation approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows the role with which most are most desirous and capable of identifying with." Personally I remain unconvinced by the final sentence of that quote: I play fantasy games to escape the mundane where I get to play a human 24x7. :) A different design philosophy appeared in later games as point-buy systems became common: either humans got a package of advantages equivalent to a non-human racial package (improved merchants, or diplomats, or warriors, or whatever), or the points cost for non-human packages were deducted from the starting total giving humans additional points to spend where they wanted (effectively making the human racial package =3D flexibility). IIRC level caps didn't survive AD&De2, and AD&D3 (or 3.5?) brought in multi-classing for everyone human or demi-human, but then a lot of roleplaying game design has flowed under the bridge since Gygax wrote the passages above, and incidentally since DQ was initially penned. IMHO I'm very happy with losing the racial taxes by some method or other (various have been proposed), provided that humans get a compensatory advantage / package, etc. I don't think we need a humanocentric pressure, but equally a pressure against human characters isn't desirable either. --f46d042fd898bf522c04d101e2a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 = at 12:37 PM, Michael Parkinson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:m.pa= rkinson@auckland.ac.nz" target=3D"_blank">m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz</a>>= ;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-NZ"> <div><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:"= ;Verdana","sans-serif"">I don=92t know if the racial tax was= <i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">intended</span></i> to be a motivatio= n to be human =85</span></font><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br>It seems probable, given the date DQ was= originally written, that it was a deliberate design consideration, as this= was certainly true of DQ's contemporary, AD&De1; humans are the ba= seline, while demi-humans have advantages (special abilities, multi-classin= g), but major disadvantages too (hard-cap level limits).<br> <br>Per Gygax (in Dragon mag): "...some of those racial types give sho= rt-term advantages to the players who choose them, but in the long run, these same characters are at an equal disadvantage when compared to human characters with the same number of=20 experience points. This was, in fact, designed into the game... [DM's w= ho remove restrictions] will eventually consign the campaign as a whole to = one in which the only races will be non-human".<br><br>Gygax goes furt= her in the DM's guide stating that the game "features humankind fo= r a reason. It is the most logical basis=20 in an illogical game. From a design standpoint it provides the sound=20 groundwork. From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it=20 provides the most readily usable assumptions. From a participation=20 approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said=20 and done, human, and it allows the role with which most are most=20 desirous and capable of identifying with."<br><br>Personally I remain = unconvinced by the final sentence of that quote: I play fantasy games to es= cape the mundane where I get to play a human 24x7. :)<br><br>A different de= sign philosophy appeared in later games as point-buy systems became common:= either humans got a package of advantages equivalent to a non-human racial= package (improved merchants, or diplomats, or warriors, or whatever), or t= he points cost for non-human packages were deducted from the starting total= giving humans additional points to spend where they wanted (effectively ma= king the human racial package =3D flexibility).<br> <br>IIRC level caps didn't survive AD&De2, and AD&D3 (or 3.5?) = brought in multi-classing for everyone human or demi-human, but then a lot = of roleplaying game design has flowed under the bridge since Gygax wrote th= e passages above, and incidentally since DQ was initially penned.<br> <br>IMHO I'm very happy with losing the racial taxes by some method or = other (various have been proposed), provided that humans get a compensatory= advantage / package, etc. I don't think we need a humanocentric pressu= re, but equally a pressure against human characters isn't desirable eit= her.<br> </div> --f46d042fd898bf522c04d101e2a7-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:01:20 +1300 |
--20cf307f380a609d6704d101ebd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable :> Jin you surprise me, I thought it was only namby-pamby milk-sop democrats that were in favor of increasing taxes I fear I am so namby-pamby Democrat left wing that I may be entirely devoid of a right hand side, which may explain my profound lack of direction. If I can presume to recapitulate your arguments as I understand them, then it is along the lines that people choose their characters as being something fun to play and consider the rule conventions somewhat further along the line. And, if I may be allowed to expand on this, it is your position that, while the choice of race is of importance, the consideration of the racial tax does not appear in the player's mind. Therefore, racial tax has little impact on at least some, and perhaps most players, on the choice of race of a character. My counter position would be that I believe that considerations of racial tax have some weight in character choice for most players. Of course, I have no proof in support of this, and even if we attempted a survey (assuming any response at all from the playership), we could not exclude the obvious bias from our data. :> the requirement that he was human was character-driven, never number-crunching. I don't have a problem with number crunching. It should not inform a player's every decisions, of course. It is by considering the constraints of a form, and finding an imaginative way to express something that expression is artistic. And, I believe that role playing is the art form we are engaged in, here. Without understanding what the numbers mean, an interesting conceit cannot be formed. Very few poems have been written without rhyme, metre, cadence or euphony, and I find myself incapable of thinking of a genre based on this lack of constraint. While an abject devotion to the numbers of the game may be inartistic, so is the refusal to give them any kind of consideration. :>It=92s an undeniable fact: even [non-shifter, non-giant]non-humans DO hav= e permanent advantages from day-1 (eg, =93impervious to the special abilities of the lesser Undead=94) and optional talents, especially vision, that a human doesn=92t get without a college. But after a while that advantage is paid for, even with interest, and still one keeps paying If special abilities are earnt on an adventure, then this is rarely trammelled by considerations of the characters' race. Well, except, maybe, for giants, who it seems to me, always pick up an ability to fit into a human sized space or smaller. In any case, this is an additive process. Inhumans start with their collection of special abilties, and add to them at the same rate as a human. So, yes, inhumans pay for their special abilities, but this extra is what it costs for having them at the outset and having them in addition to any other special abilities. On 17 December 2012 12:37, Michael Parkinson <m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz>wr= ote: > No more taxes!! No more taxes!!**** > > ** ** > > Which is to say=85 I really hope that the clear majority of GMs & players= do > support a mechanism for eliminating racial taxes at a cost that is not > unduly inequitable. Thanks to Ian for the illuminating table of > estimated maximum gains =97 I now view it not as a racial tax but a mortg= age > =85 which I=92d like to pay off ASAP.**** > > ** ** > > Jin you surprise me, I thought it was only namby-pamby milk-sop democrats > that were in favor of increasing taxes. I don=92t know if the racial tax= was > *intended* to be a motivation to be human =85 maybe it was more of a > consolation prize if everybody really wants to be non-human but failed th= e > roll. Personally, my current human character was designed as a particula= r > CHARACTER and so never envisioned as Elf, hobbit, giant, dwarf, > shape-changer, or the odd *what-the-hell-is-that *that crops up in the > Guild =97 the requirement that he was human was character-driven, never > number-crunching. **** > > ** ** > > It=92s an undeniable fact: even [non-shifter, non-giant] non-humans DO ha= ve > permanent advantages from day-1 (eg, =93impervious to the special abiliti= es > of the lesser Undead=94) and optional talents, especially vision, that a > human doesn=92t get without a college. But after a while that advantage = is > paid for, even with interest, and still one keeps paying =85**** > > ** ** > > Conversely, if we measure humans solely by what they *can=92t* do, then m= y > human non-mage hasn=92t been human since his 5th adventure or thereabouts= . > Nor is there anyway, as GM, I=92m going to give out permanent abilities b= ut > say that advantage forces the character to pay an =93x%=94 racial tax bec= ause > they are no longer standard out-of-the-box humans (or hobbits or =85). A= nd > what GM of moderate experience has not weaselled their write-ups with > =93quasi-racial=94 or analogous terms to ensuring a particular benefit is= still > function after resurrection, etc**** > > ** ** > > [Sorry if mailing too vague or wordy! Need coffee =85]**** > > ** ** > > Michael Parkinson (Ph 3737 599 ext 85858)**** > > m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz**** > > Mathematics, Statistics & Physics Subject Librarian**** > > http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject-guides/math/mathsub1.htm > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D**** > > ** ** > > *From:* dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] *On Behalf > Of *Jim Arona > *Sent:* Thursday, 13 December 2012 12:11 p.m. > > *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz > *Subject:* Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax**** > > ** ** > > I wasn't at the Guild Meeting, so I wasn't there to hear this. > > I do not support the idea of reducing Racial Taxes. In fact, the only > suggestion I would entertain is increasing them.**** > > > The reason is that experience is earnt in a linear fashion. On the other > hand, it is spent, in alsmost all cases, in an exponential fashion. This = is > certainly the case for Magic, it is my analysis that the costs for Skills > and Weapons increase at a rate congruent with a Fibonacci sequence, which > is, in any case, approximately exponential in nature.**** > > > This means that the cost of advancing increases at higher Ranks, and > therefore the effect is, when compared against a linear rate of income, > that the inhuman will only be a few Ranks behind.**** > > > Assume a human has advanced a 100 Exp. Mult. spell to Rank 20 at a cost o= f > 21,000 Experience. > A shapechanger would only be able to spend 15,000 Experience. It costs > 15,300 Experience to raise the spell to Rank 17.**** > > > This is a rate, which means that because of the increasing costs of > Ranking, the distance that a shapechanger will lag behind a human is goin= g > to be about 3 Ranks.**** > > > So, my objection is that the advantage of being human is nothing *other > than this*, and I don't see it as being a particularly powerful > motivation to be human. Any process that diminishes the one advantage (su= ch > as it is) that humans can have is an in-game motivation to choose somethi= ng > else.**** > --20cf307f380a609d6704d101ebd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana&= quot;,"sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><font color=3D"#000099">:> = Jin you surprise me, I thought it was only namby-pamby milk-sop democrats t= hat were in favor of increasing taxes</font></span><br> </font></div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I fear I am so namby-pamby D= emocrat left wing that I may be entirely devoid of a right hand side, which= may explain my=A0 profound lack of direction.</font></div><div><font face= =3D"georgia,serif"></font>=A0</div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">If I can presume to recapitulate your arg= uments as I understand them, then it is along the lines that people choose = their characters as being something fun to play and consider the rule conve= ntions somewhat further along the line. And, if I may be allowed to expand = on this, it is your position that, while the choice of race is of importanc= e, the consideration of the racial tax does not appear in the player's = mind. Therefore, racial tax has little impact on at least some, and perhaps= most players, on the choice of race of a character.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"georgi= a,serif">My counter position would be that I believe that considerations of= racial tax have some weight in character choice for most players. Of cours= e, I have no proof in support of this, and even if we attempted a survey (a= ssuming any response at all from the playership), we could not exclude the = obvious bias from=A0our data.</font></div> <div>=A0</div><div><font color=3D"#000099">:> </font><font face=3D"Verda= na"><font color=3D"#000099">the requirement that he was human was character= -driven, never number-crunching.</font> </font></div><div><font face=3D"geo= rgia,serif">I don't have a problem with number crunching. It=A0should n= ot inform a player's every=A0decisions, of course.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">It is by considering the constraints of a= form, and finding an imaginative way to express something that=A0expressio= n is=A0artistic. And, I believe that role playing is=A0the art form we are = engaged in, here. Without understanding what the numbers mean, an interesti= ng conceit cannot be formed.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Very few poems have been written without = rhyme, metre, cadence or euphony, and I find myself incapable of thinking o= f a genre based on this lack of constraint.</font></div><div><font face=3D"= georgia,serif">While an abject devotion to the numbers of the game may be i= nartistic, so is the=A0refusal to=A0give them=A0any kind of=A0consideration= .</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Verdana"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Verdana"><fo= nt color=3D"#000099">:><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",&q= uot;sans-serif";font-size:10pt">It=92s an undeniable fact: even [non-s= hifter, non-giant]</span><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:= "Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">non-humans DO ha= ve permanent advantages from day-1 (eg, =93</span></font><font face=3D"Verd= ana"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";= font-size:10pt">impervious to the special abilities of the lesser Undead=94= ) and optional talents, especially vision, that a human doesn=92t get witho= ut a college. But after a while that advantage is paid for, even with inte= rest, and still one keeps paying</span></font></font></font>=A0</div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana&= quot;,"sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><= /font></span></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><span style= =3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">= If special abilities are earnt on an adventure, then this is rarely trammel= led by considerations of the characters' race. Well, except, maybe, for= giants, who it seems to me, always pick up an ability to fit into a human = sized space or smaller. In any case, this is an additive process. Inhumans = start with their collection of special abilties, and add to them at the sam= e rate as a human.</span></font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",= "sans-serif";font-size:10pt"></span></font>=A0</div><div><font fa= ce=3D"georgia,serif"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","s= ans-serif";font-size:10pt"><font face=3D"georgia,serif">So, yes, inhum= ans pay for their special abilities, but this extra is what it costs for ha= ving=A0them at the outset and having=A0them in addition to any other specia= l abilities.</font>=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Verdana"><font face=3D"Ve= rdana"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"= ;;font-size:10pt"></span></font></font>=A0</div> <div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 = December 2012 12:37, Michael Parkinson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mai= lto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz" target=3D"_blank">m.parkinson@auckland.ac.n= z</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"> <div lang=3D"EN-NZ" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue"> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">No more taxes!! = =A0No more taxes!!<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Which is to say=85= I really hope that the clear majority of GMs & players do support a me= chanism for eliminating racial taxes at a cost that is not unduly inequitable. =A0</span></font><font fac= e=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-ser= if";font-size:10pt">Thanks to Ian for the illuminating table of estima= ted maximum gains =97 I now view it not as a racial tax but a mortgage =85 which I=92d like to pay off ASAP.<u></u><u></u></sp= an></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Jin you surprise m= e, I thought it was only namby-pamby milk-sop democrats that were in favor = of increasing taxes. =A0I don=92t know if the racial tax was <i><span style=3D"font-style:itali= c">intended</span></i> to be a motivation to be human =85 maybe it was more= of a consolation prize if everybody really wants to be non-human but faile= d the roll.=A0 Personally, my current human character was designed as a particular CHARACTER and so never envisioned a= s Elf, hobbit, giant, dwarf, shape-changer, or the odd <i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">what-the-hell-is-that </span></i>that = crops up in the Guild =97 the requirement that he was human was character-d= riven, never number-crunching.=A0 <u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">It=92s an undeniab= le fact: even [non-shifter, non-giant] </span></font><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verda= na","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">non-humans DO have permanen= t advantages from day-1 (eg, =93</span></font><font face=3D"Verdana"><span = style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:1= 0pt">impervious to the special abilities of the lesser Undead=94) and optional talents, es= pecially vision, that a human doesn=92t get without a college. =A0But after= a while that advantage is paid for, even with interest, and still one keep= s paying =85<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Conversely, if we = measure humans solely by what they <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">can=92t</span></b> do, then my human no= n-mage hasn=92t been human since his 5th adventure or thereabouts.=A0 Nor i= s there anyway, as GM, I=92m going to give out permanent abilities but say = that advantage forces the character to pay an =93x%=94 racial tax because they are no longer standard out-of-the-box = humans (or hobbits or =85).=A0 And what GM of moderate experience has not w= easelled their write-ups with =93quasi-racial=94 or analogous terms to ensu= ring a particular benefit is still function after resurrection, etc<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">[Sorry if mailing = too vague or wordy! Need coffee =85]<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Michael Parkinson = (Ph 3737 599 ext 85858)<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl= e=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz" target= =3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"color:blue= ;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">m.p= arkinson@auckland.ac.nz</span></font></a></span></font><font face=3D"Verdan= a"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";fo= nt-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt">Mathematics, Stati= stics & Physics Subject Librarian<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl= e=3D"font-size:12pt"><a href=3D"http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject-g= uides/math/mathsub1.htm" target=3D"_blank"><font color=3D"blue" face=3D"Ver= dana"><span style=3D"color:blue;font-family:"Verdana","sans-= serif";font-size:10pt">http://www.library.auckland.ac.nz/subject-guide= s/math/mathsub1.htm</span></font></a></span></font><font face=3D"Verdana"><= span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";font-s= ize:10pt"> <br> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:&q= uot;Verdana","sans-serif";font-size:10pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u><= /span></font></p> <div style=3D"border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;border-style:none non= e none solid;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentColor blue;paddi= ng:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"> <div> <div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b= order-color:rgb(181,196,223) currentColor currentColor;padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"= > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-family:= "Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt;font-weight:bold" = lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"= font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-size:10pt" lang= =3D"EN-US"> <a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq-owner@dq.sf.= org.nz</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blan= k">dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf= Of </span></b>Jim Arona<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 13 December = 2012 12:11 p.m.</span></font></p><font face=3D"Tahoma"><div class=3D"im"><b= r> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.= sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Changing R= acial Tax<u></u><u></u></div></font><p></p> </div> </div><div class=3D"im"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl= e=3D"font-size:12pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt">I wasn't= at the Guild Meeting, so I wasn't there to hear this.<br> <br> I do not support the idea of reducing Racial Taxes. In fact, the only sugge= stion I would entertain is increasing them.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> The reason is that experience is earnt in a linear fashion. On the other ha= nd, it is spent, in alsmost all cases, in an exponential fashion. This is c= ertainly the case for Magic, it is my analysis that the costs for Skills an= d Weapons increase at a rate congruent with a Fibonacci sequence, which is, in any case, approximately exponentia= l in nature.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> This means that the cost of advancing increases at higher Ranks, and theref= ore the effect is, when compared against a linear rate of income, that the = inhuman will only be a few Ranks behind.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> Assume a human has advanced a 100 Exp. Mult. spell to Rank 20 at a cost of = 21,000 Experience.<br> A shapechanger would only be able to spend 15,000 Experience. It costs 15,3= 00 Experience to raise the spell to Rank 17.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p= > </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> This is a rate, which means that because of the increasing costs of Ranking= , the distance that a shapechanger will lag behind a human is going to be a= bout 3 Ranks.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"fon= t-family:"Georgia","serif";font-size:12pt"><br> So, my objection is that the advantage of being human is nothing <strong><b= ><font face=3D"Georgia"><span style=3D"font-family:"Georgia",&quo= t;serif"">other than this</span></font></b></strong>, and I don't = see it as being a particularly powerful motivation to be human. Any process that diminishes the one advantage (such as it is) that humans = can have is an in-game motivation to choose something else.<u></u><u></u></= span></font></p> </div> </div></div> </div> </div> </blockquote></div><br> --20cf307f380a609d6704d101ebd5-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 14:13:36 +1300 |
--bcaec54ee3703e1dc004d1021702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Martin Dickson wrote: Personally I remain unconvinced by the final sentence of that quote: I play fantasy games to escape the mundane where I get to play a human 24x7. :) I don't really accept anything written by Gary Gygax, because he was a know-nothing poseur, although I accept that the tenor of the times, and therefore the design considerations, were as you say. Martin Dickson wrote: IMHO I'm very happy with losing the racial taxes by some method or other (various have been proposed), provided that humans get a compensatory advantage / package, etc. I don't think we need a humanocentric pressure, but equally a pressure against human characters isn't desirable either. I would be interested to know what kind of thing this compensatory package or advantage this might be that, on the one hand, accurately modeled humanity and on the other, provided a meaningful bonus. The approach Earthdawn uses is to make all inhuman races except windlings to be less attractive than humans. This does not mean that there are no inhumans, just fewer of them. The logic behind the choice was character driven, because there was no number crunching reason to choose an inhuman. On another note, I never knew that many people who DMed Earthdawn, mind, but those that did either refused point blank to allow windlings or accepted them with the kind of wicked glee that fatally discouraged people from taking them. On 17 December 2012 13:58, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Michael Parkinson < > m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz> wrote: > >> I don=92t know if the racial tax was *intended* to be a motivation to b= e >> human =85 >> > > It seems probable, given the date DQ was originally written, that it was = a > deliberate design consideration, as this was certainly true of DQ's > contemporary, AD&De1; humans are the baseline, while demi-humans have > advantages (special abilities, multi-classing), but major disadvantages t= oo > (hard-cap level limits). > > Per Gygax (in Dragon mag): "...some of those racial types give short-term > advantages to the players who choose them, but in the long run, these sam= e > characters are at an equal disadvantage when compared to human characters > with the same number of experience points. This was, in fact, designed in= to > the game... [DM's who remove restrictions] will eventually consign the > campaign as a whole to one in which the only races will be non-human". > > Gygax goes further in the DM's guide stating that the game "features > humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in an illogical game= . > From a design standpoint it provides the sound groundwork. From a > standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most readily > usable assumptions. From a participation approach it is the only method, > for all players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows the > role with which most are most desirous and capable of identifying with." > > Personally I remain unconvinced by the final sentence of that quote: I > play fantasy games to escape the mundane where I get to play a human 24x7= . > :) > > A different design philosophy appeared in later games as point-buy system= s > became common: either humans got a package of advantages equivalent to a > non-human racial package (improved merchants, or diplomats, or warriors, = or > whatever), or the points cost for non-human packages were deducted from t= he > starting total giving humans additional points to spend where they wanted > (effectively making the human racial package =3D flexibility). > > IIRC level caps didn't survive AD&De2, and AD&D3 (or 3.5?) brought in > multi-classing for everyone human or demi-human, but then a lot of > roleplaying game design has flowed under the bridge since Gygax wrote the > passages above, and incidentally since DQ was initially penned. > > IMHO I'm very happy with losing the racial taxes by some method or other > (various have been proposed), provided that humans get a compensatory > advantage / package, etc. I don't think we need a humanocentric pressure, > but equally a pressure against human characters isn't desirable either. > --bcaec54ee3703e1dc004d1021702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><font color=3D"#000099" face=3D"arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Martin Dic= kson wrote:</font></div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><font color=3D"#0= 00099" face=3D"arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Personally I remain unconvinced = by the final sentence of that quote: I play fantasy games to escape the mun= dane where I get to play a human 24x7. :)</font><br> </font></div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font><div><font face=3D"georgia= ,serif">I don't really accept anything written by Gary Gygax, because h= e was a know-nothing poseur, although I accept that the tenor of the times,= and therefore the design considerations, were as you say.</font></div> <div>=A0</div><div><font color=3D"#000099">Martin Dickson wrote:</font></di= v><div><font color=3D"#000099">IMHO I'm very happy with losing the raci= al taxes by some method or other (various have been proposed), provided tha= t humans get a compensatory advantage / package, etc. I don't think we = need a humanocentric pressure, but equally a pressure against human charact= ers isn't desirable either.</font></div> <div>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I would be interested to kn= ow what kind of thing this compensatory package or advantage this might be = that, on the one hand, accurately modeled humanity and on the other, provid= ed a meaningful bonus. The approach Earthdawn uses is to make all inhuman r= aces except windlings to be less attractive than humans. This does not mean= that there are no inhumans, just fewer of them. The logic behind the choic= e was character driven, because there was no number crunching reason to cho= ose an inhuman. On another note, I never knew that many people who DMed Ear= thdawn, mind, but those that did either refused point blank to allow windli= ngs or accepted them with the kind of wicked glee that fatally discouraged = people from taking them.</font><br> </div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 December 2012 13:58, Martin Dickson = <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com" target=3D= "_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote styl= e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,20= 4,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=3D"gmail_quote"= > <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"im"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On = Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Michael Parkinson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a h= ref=3D"mailto:m.parkinson@auckland.ac.nz" target=3D"_blank">m.parkinson@auc= kland.ac.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"> <div lang=3D"EN-NZ" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue"> <div><font face=3D"Verdana"><span style=3D"font-family:"Verdana",= "sans-serif";font-size:10pt">I don=92t know if the racial tax was= <i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">intended</span></i> to be a motivatio= n to be human =85</span></font><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>It seems probable, given the date = DQ was originally written, that it was a deliberate design consideration, a= s this was certainly true of DQ's contemporary, AD&De1; humans are = the baseline, while demi-humans have advantages (special abilities, multi-c= lassing), but major disadvantages too (hard-cap level limits).<br> <br>Per Gygax (in Dragon mag): "...some of those racial types give sho= rt-term advantages to the players who choose them, but in the long run, these same characters are at an equal disadvantage when compared to human characters with the same number of=20 experience points. This was, in fact, designed into the game... [DM's w= ho remove restrictions] will eventually consign the campaign as a whole to = one in which the only races will be non-human".<br><br>Gygax goes furt= her in the DM's guide stating that the game "features humankind fo= r a reason. It is the most logical basis=20 in an illogical game. From a design standpoint it provides the sound=20 groundwork. From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it=20 provides the most readily usable assumptions. From a participation=20 approach it is the only method, for all players are, after all is said=20 and done, human, and it allows the role with which most are most=20 desirous and capable of identifying with."<br><br>Personally I remain = unconvinced by the final sentence of that quote: I play fantasy games to es= cape the mundane where I get to play a human 24x7. :)<br><br>A different de= sign philosophy appeared in later games as point-buy systems became common:= either humans got a package of advantages equivalent to a non-human racial= package (improved merchants, or diplomats, or warriors, or whatever), or t= he points cost for non-human packages were deducted from the starting total= giving humans additional points to spend where they wanted (effectively ma= king the human racial package =3D flexibility).<br> <br>IIRC level caps didn't survive AD&De2, and AD&D3 (or 3.5?) = brought in multi-classing for everyone human or demi-human, but then a lot = of roleplaying game design has flowed under the bridge since Gygax wrote th= e passages above, and incidentally since DQ was initially penned.<br> <br>IMHO I'm very happy with losing the racial taxes by some method or = other (various have been proposed), provided that humans get a compensatory= advantage / package, etc. I don't think we need a humanocentric pressu= re, but equally a pressure against human characters isn't desirable eit= her.<br> </div> </blockquote></div><br> --bcaec54ee3703e1dc004d1021702-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:06:04 +1300 |
--047d7b5da809ddefe804d102d2bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > I would be interested to know what kind of thing this compensatory package > or advantage this might be that, on the one hand, accurately modeled > humanity and on the other, provided a meaningful bonus... > I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be an interesting conversation, and looking at what other games / designers have done in this area could offer pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tales. :) What does current D&D or Pathfinder do here for example? (Anyone on the list know?) I never played AD&De3 but understand they gave humans an additional "feat" (whatever that is). :) I don't know what e4, e5/Next or Pathfinder does for this. Savage Worlds for instance gives humans an additional "edge" -- effectively a permanent character advantage -- example edges include being Lucky or Ambidextrous or having Combat Reflexes, or the ability to McGyver stuff up. Everyone gets 1 or 2 at the outset and humans get +1 which is a fairly chunky advantage. Over time every levels up and gets weird stuff, etc but that +1 is big at the outset. GURPS in classic point-buy fashion models the races as (say) 25 point templates. A racial pack of [Elf] might get +dex, and prettiness, and fey-ness, etc... whereas [Human] might get +25 points (spend at will). Hero system works the same way. This non-specific bonus trade off plays to the notion of non-humans having stronger arch-types (even stereo-types) than humans, and less flexibility. And perhaps that's what we want. That said, I'm not sure how much we need to accurately model humanity, but meaningful bonus looks like a must. The current DQ elf racial traits for example don't accurately model elves in the abstract, rather they give a model to the elves in DQ. In the same way any human traits will create an in-game pressure towards that being what humans are like in-game, not what the full gamut of humanity is like in the real world. One of the changes that got made, years ago now, when the DQ character gen section got an edit and overhaul, was re-writing the description of humans from being xenophobic and isolationist to being vibrant community builders (because that's what we've seen in the campaign -- human lands are the norm, and human communities are... generally... fairly accepting of non-humans). So, DQ humans are good at building, at organizing, at teamwork, at warfare, at mercantile pursuits, negotiation, alliance building, diplomacy... Or as a poster on an rpg forum said: "Humans excel at killing people and taking their stuff." Perhaps something in that direction? :) --047d7b5da809ddefe804d102d2bf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 = at 2:13 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gma= il.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left= :1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I would be interested to know what kind o= f thing this compensatory package or advantage this might be that, on the o= ne hand, accurately modeled humanity and on the other, provided a meaningfu= l bonus</font>...<br> </div></blockquote></div><br>I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be = an interesting conversation, and looking at what other games / designers ha= ve done in this area could offer pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tal= es. :)<br> <br>What does current D&D or Pathfinder do here for example? (Anyone on= the list know?) I never played AD&De3 but understand they gave humans = an additional "feat" (whatever that is). :)=A0 I don't know w= hat e4, e5/Next or Pathfinder does for this.<br> <br>Savage Worlds for instance gives humans an additional "edge" = -- effectively a permanent character advantage -- example edges include bei= ng Lucky or Ambidextrous or having Combat Reflexes, or the ability to McGyv= er stuff up. Everyone gets 1 or 2 at the outset and humans get +1 which is = a fairly chunky advantage.=A0 Over time every levels up and gets weird stuf= f, etc but that +1 is big at the outset.<br> <br>GURPS in classic point-buy fashion models the races as (say) 25 point t= emplates. A racial pack of [Elf] might get +dex, and prettiness, and fey-ne= ss, etc... whereas [Human] might get +25 points (spend at will). Hero syste= m works the same way. This non-specific bonus trade off plays to the notion= of non-humans having stronger arch-types (even stereo-types) than humans, = and less flexibility. And perhaps that's what we want.<br> <br>That said, I'm not sure how much we need to accurately model humani= ty, but meaningful bonus looks like a must. The current DQ elf racial trait= s for example don't accurately model elves in the abstract, rather they= give a model to the elves in DQ. In the same way any human traits will cre= ate an in-game pressure towards that being what humans are like in-game, no= t what the full gamut of humanity is like in the real world.<br> <br>One of the changes that got made, years ago now, when the DQ character = gen section got an edit and overhaul, was re-writing the description of hum= ans from being xenophobic and isolationist to being vibrant community build= ers (because that's what we've seen in the campaign -- human lands = are the norm, and human communities are... generally... fairly accepting of= non-humans). So, DQ humans are good at building, at organizing, at teamwor= k, at warfare, at mercantile pursuits, negotiation, alliance building, dipl= omacy... <br> <br>Or as a poster on an rpg forum said: "Humans excel at killing peop= le and taking their stuff." Perhaps something in that direction? :)<br= ><br><br></div> --047d7b5da809ddefe804d102d2bf-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | [dq] Delph Maps |
|---|---|
| From | Bernard Hoggins |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 02:30:39 +0000 (GMT) |
---1437147565-480575163-1355711439=:40590 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looking for a Map of Delph that shows where stuff on the island is.=A0 Does= anyone have one in digital form?=A0 Or a link to one, can't seem to find o= ne on the Wiki.=0A=0AIf so direct reply with attachment would be great.=0A= =0A=0ABernard=0A=0Anevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk=0A ---1437147565-480575163-1355711439=:40590 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti= mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt">Looking for a Map of = Delph that shows where stuff on the island is. Does anyone have one i= n digital form? Or a link to one, can't seem to find one on the Wiki.= <br><div>If so direct reply with attachment would be great.<br><span></span= ></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: ser= if; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span><br></span></= div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: serif;= background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">Bernard<br><span></spa= n></div><div>nevyn0ad@yahoo.co.uk<br></div></div></body></html> ---1437147565-480575163-1355711439=:40590-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:34:48 +1300 |
--f46d04389455a4ba7504d10339ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Martin Dickson wrote: I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be an interesting conversation, and looking at what other games / designers have done in this area could offer pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tales. :) Yeah, somehow, I'm not convinced. I believe it would be a long conversation, and probably quite loud. GURPS is a points-based system, and you can take an inhuman, resting in the knowledge that you are narrowing your possible character choices, in return for getting the specific flavour you are after, and given such an utility-based economy, it is, the equity is already in the system. Well, if you consider equity to be an issue, I suppose. I think offering a bonus to humans is the can of worms of this issue. Most other games are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration. In such a game, an extra feat (or what have you) may be incredibly powerful or insignificantly trivial depending on the weight given it by an individual DM. The task, were it to be attempted for DQ, is to weigh an ability or package which describes what it is to be human, while being something that everyone can agree on. I am sure we can work out something for the first part of the sentence. It's the second bit that is, I feel, insurmountable. Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other games are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' and I see that I should actually have written 'All other games are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' Anyway, it is not that we might not come up with an elegant solution. It is that all the elegant solutions will be discarded because it doesn't appease someone, until all we are left with is the ugliest solution. That is the usual process, but where this has been too much to bear, the game in general has reversed itself or made other changes which have led to a better outcome. I do not believe that there would be any will to reverse directions if abandoing Racial Taxes were found to be unsound. On 17 December 2012 15:06, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I would be interested to know what kind of thing this compensatory >> package or advantage this might be that, on the one hand, accurately >> modeled humanity and on the other, provided a meaningful bonus... >> > > I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be an interesting conversation, and > looking at what other games / designers have done in this area could offer > pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tales. :) > > What does current D&D or Pathfinder do here for example? (Anyone on the > list know?) I never played AD&De3 but understand they gave humans an > additional "feat" (whatever that is). :) I don't know what e4, e5/Next or > Pathfinder does for this. > > Savage Worlds for instance gives humans an additional "edge" -- > effectively a permanent character advantage -- example edges include being > Lucky or Ambidextrous or having Combat Reflexes, or the ability to McGyver > stuff up. Everyone gets 1 or 2 at the outset and humans get +1 which is a > fairly chunky advantage. Over time every levels up and gets weird stuff, > etc but that +1 is big at the outset. > > GURPS in classic point-buy fashion models the races as (say) 25 point > templates. A racial pack of [Elf] might get +dex, and prettiness, and > fey-ness, etc... whereas [Human] might get +25 points (spend at will). Hero > system works the same way. This non-specific bonus trade off plays to the > notion of non-humans having stronger arch-types (even stereo-types) than > humans, and less flexibility. And perhaps that's what we want. > > That said, I'm not sure how much we need to accurately model humanity, but > meaningful bonus looks like a must. The current DQ elf racial traits for > example don't accurately model elves in the abstract, rather they give a > model to the elves in DQ. In the same way any human traits will create an > in-game pressure towards that being what humans are like in-game, not what > the full gamut of humanity is like in the real world. > > One of the changes that got made, years ago now, when the DQ character gen > section got an edit and overhaul, was re-writing the description of humans > from being xenophobic and isolationist to being vibrant community builders > (because that's what we've seen in the campaign -- human lands are the > norm, and human communities are... generally... fairly accepting of > non-humans). So, DQ humans are good at building, at organizing, at > teamwork, at warfare, at mercantile pursuits, negotiation, alliance > building, diplomacy... > > Or as a poster on an rpg forum said: "Humans excel at killing people and > taking their stuff." Perhaps something in that direction? :) > > > --f46d04389455a4ba7504d10339ac Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <font face=3D"georgia,serif"><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div>Martin Dickso= n wrote:<br>I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be an interesting co= nversation, and looking at what other games / designers have done in this a= rea could offer pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tales. :)</div> <div>=A0</div><div>Yeah, somehow, I'm not convinced. I believe it would= be a long conversation, and=A0probably quite=A0loud.</div><div>GURPS is a = points-based system, and you can take an inhuman, resting in the knowledge = that you are narrowing your possible character choices, in return for getti= ng the specific flavour you are after, and given such an utility-based econ= omy, it is, the equity is already in the system. Well, if you consider equi= ty to be an issue, I suppose.</div> <div>=A0</div><div>I think offering a bonus to humans is the can of worms o= f this issue. Most other games are systems based around single campaign gam= es of limited duration. In such a game, an extra feat (or what have you) ma= y be incredibly powerful or insignificantly trivial depending on the weight= given it by an individual DM. </div> <div>The task, were it to be attempted for DQ, is to weigh an ability or pa= ckage which describes what it is to be human,=A0while being something that= =A0everyone can agree on. I am sure we can work out something for the first= part of the sentence. It's the second bit that is, I feel, insurmounta= ble. </div> <div>Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other g= ames are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.= 9; and I see that I should actually have written 'All other games are s= ystems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' </div> <div>Anyway, it is not that we might not come up with an elegant solution. = It is that all the elegant solutions will be discarded because it doesn'= ;t appease someone, until all we are left with is the ugliest solution. Tha= t is the usual process, but where this has been too much to bear, the game = in general has reversed itself or made other changes which have led to a be= tter outcome.</div> <div>I do not believe that there would be=A0any=A0will to reverse direction= s if abandoing Racial Taxes were found to be unsound. </div></font><div><br= ></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 December 2012 15:06, Martin Dickson= <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.com" target= =3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M= on, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mai= lto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>></spa= n> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">I would be interested to know what kind o= f thing this compensatory package or advantage this might be that, on the o= ne hand, accurately modeled humanity and on the other, provided a meaningfu= l bonus</font>...<br> </div></blockquote></div><br>I'm not sure Jim, but I think it could be = an interesting conversation, and looking at what other games / designers ha= ve done in this area could offer pointers, suggestions... or cautionary tal= es. :)<br> <br>What does current D&D or Pathfinder do here for example? (Anyone on= the list know?) I never played AD&De3 but understand they gave humans = an additional "feat" (whatever that is). :)=A0 I don't know w= hat e4, e5/Next or Pathfinder does for this.<br> <br>Savage Worlds for instance gives humans an additional "edge" = -- effectively a permanent character advantage -- example edges include bei= ng Lucky or Ambidextrous or having Combat Reflexes, or the ability to McGyv= er stuff up. Everyone gets 1 or 2 at the outset and humans get +1 which is = a fairly chunky advantage.=A0 Over time every levels up and gets weird stuf= f, etc but that +1 is big at the outset.<br> <br>GURPS in classic point-buy fashion models the races as (say) 25 point t= emplates. A racial pack of [Elf] might get +dex, and prettiness, and fey-ne= ss, etc... whereas [Human] might get +25 points (spend at will). Hero syste= m works the same way. This non-specific bonus trade off plays to the notion= of non-humans having stronger arch-types (even stereo-types) than humans, = and less flexibility. And perhaps that's what we want.<br> <br>That said, I'm not sure how much we need to accurately model humani= ty, but meaningful bonus looks like a must. The current DQ elf racial trait= s for example don't accurately model elves in the abstract, rather they= give a model to the elves in DQ. In the same way any human traits will cre= ate an in-game pressure towards that being what humans are like in-game, no= t what the full gamut of humanity is like in the real world.<br> <br>One of the changes that got made, years ago now, when the DQ character = gen section got an edit and overhaul, was re-writing the description of hum= ans from being xenophobic and isolationist to being vibrant community build= ers (because that's what we've seen in the campaign -- human lands = are the norm, and human communities are... generally... fairly accepting of= non-humans). So, DQ humans are good at building, at organizing, at teamwor= k, at warfare, at mercantile pursuits, negotiation, alliance building, dipl= omacy... <br> <br>Or as a poster on an rpg forum said: "Humans excel at killing peop= le and taking their stuff." Perhaps something in that direction? :)<br= ><br><br></div> </blockquote></div><br> --f46d04389455a4ba7504d10339ac-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Stephen Martin |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:26:23 +1300 |
How about "Humans are uncannily lucky bastards who somehow thrive despite their best efforts." +5% on all base chances (fully stackable) or -1 on percentage dice rolls (fully stackable) They could be more likeable: Initial impressions and reactions will be 10% more positive. 10% experience discount on Merchant and Courtier. They could have more potential: Stats may be raised up to 6 above their starting values but not exceeding racial max. Not necessarily huge stuff, just an extra edge the monsters don't have. :-) -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Ian Wood |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:52:11 +1300 |
Something would be needed for Humans. otherwise the EP discount for ranking Healer, for example, is paid for out of the racial tax, may as well remove the discount and lower the tax. I think Stephen's is on the right track, though perhaps needs expanding... Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz [mailto:dq-owner@dq.sf.org.nz] On > Behalf Of Stephen Martin > Sent: Monday, 17 December 2012 16:26 > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Subject: Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax > > How about "Humans are uncannily lucky bastards who somehow > thrive despite their best efforts." > +5% on all base chances (fully stackable) > or -1 on percentage dice rolls (fully stackable) > > They could be more likeable: > Initial impressions and reactions will be 10% more positive. > 10% experience discount on Merchant and Courtier. > > They could have more potential: > Stats may be raised up to 6 above their starting values but > not exceeding racial max. > > > Not necessarily huge stuff, just an extra edge the monsters > don't have. :-) > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5963 - Release > Date: 12/15/12 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2805 / Virus Database: 2637/5963 - Release Date: 12/15/12 -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:58:38 +1300 |
--bcaec501c0cc704c1404d1046598 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 All of these are great solutions. Again. How generally do people think these modifiers are appropriate? Do they go far enough, or need they be even greater? On 17 December 2012 16:26, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote: > How about "Humans are uncannily lucky bastards who somehow thrive despite > their best efforts." > +5% on all base chances (fully stackable) > or -1 on percentage dice rolls (fully stackable) > > They could be more likeable: > Initial impressions and reactions will be 10% more positive. > 10% experience discount on Merchant and Courtier. > > They could have more potential: > Stats may be raised up to 6 above their starting values but not exceeding > racial max. > > > Not necessarily huge stuff, just an extra edge the monsters don't have. :-) > > > -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- > --bcaec501c0cc704c1404d1046598 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">All of these are great solutions.</font><= /div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">Again. How generally do people think= these modifiers are appropriate? </font></div><div><font face=3D"georgia,s= erif">Do they go far enough, or need they be even greater?<br> </font><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 December 2012 16:26, Step= hen Martin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net" targ= et=3D"_blank">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote style= =3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204= ,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=3D"gmail_quote"> How about "Humans are uncannily lucky bastards who somehow thrive desp= ite their best efforts."<br> +5% on all base chances (fully stackable)<br> or -1 on percentage dice rolls (fully stackable)<br> <br> They could be more likeable:<br> Initial impressions and reactions will be 10% more positive.<br> 10% experience discount on Merchant and Courtier.<br> <br> They could have more potential:<br> Stats may be raised up to 6 above their starting values but not exceeding r= acial max.<br> <br> <br> Not necessarily huge stuff, just an extra edge the monsters don't have.= :-)<br> <br> <br> -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz">= dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz</a> --<br> </blockquote></div><br> --bcaec501c0cc704c1404d1046598-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:42:22 +1300 |
--047d7b5d8cd7674f7204d105d8b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other games are > systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' and I see > that I should actually have written 'All other games are systems based > around single campaign games of limited duration.' I think I may have misunderstood your position earlier then Jim. I thought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure are added to those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost if they were to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast sooner or later but the non-humans have a head-start. If that's the case then the duration of the campaign isn't terrifically relevant... or if it is, then it's more relevant in the other direction; characters spend a very long time as non-newbies and any starting benefits are proportionally less important. Anyway, having a look at Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc (as the three least buffed non-humans) and leaving aside Elf and the weird-ones for now... Dwarf. Nett primary attribute gain: +2 Nett secondary attribute gain: -2 (and while PB -2 isn't a big deal, the -1 TMR is a bit painful) Potential over 25: PS, EN, WP Bonuses: Dark vision, assay gems and bullion, 1/2 EM Ranger mountain or caverns, 2x alcohol. Halfling Nett primary attribute gain: -1 Nett secondary attribute gain: -1 Potential over 25: MD, AG, WP Bonuses: Infravision, +20% stealth, 1/2 EM Thief, the volcano thing. Orc Nett primary attribute gain: -1 Nett secondary attribute gain: -1 (though that's PB, and the +2 FT and +1 NA are pretty nice) Potential over 25: PS, EN Bonuses: Infravision, -10% ranged in bright light, 3/4 EM Assassin or Warrior, fecund. IMHO to offer a equitable starting point (and I assume that's what we desire since otherwise it would be easiest to say "pick a race, any race and off you go") a human "package" needs to be about as good / bad as these. Currently humans have +10% reaction... which rates about as useful as the alcohol, volcanoes, and fecundity, so... +1 on a stat of the player's choice (with the potential of over 25) -- this is a big deal as it means the player can fit it to their own character conception whereas the non-human ones are fixed. Want to be a great dwarf wizard? You're MA will always be lower, etc. (Basically little stat benefit unless conforming to the stereotypes). 1/2 EM on a skill or, 3/4 EM on two (Navigator? Merchant? both... they're not that big a deal) And we're left with a bonus on the order of the dark sight of the three races above (I'm not sure what to do for this one, but various suggestion have been made). Elves... may need a nerf bat. :) --047d7b5d8cd7674f7204d105d8b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 = at 3:34 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gma= il.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left= :1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other games = are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' an= d I see that I should actually have written 'All other games are system= s based around single campaign games of limited duration.' </blockquote= > <div><br>I think I may have misunderstood your position earlier then Jim.= =A0 I thought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure are = added to those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost if th= ey were to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast soo= ner or later but the non-humans have a head-start.<br> <br>If that's the case then the duration of the campaign isn't terr= ifically relevant... or if it is, then it's more relevant in the other = direction; characters spend a very long time as non-newbies and any startin= g benefits are proportionally less important.<br> <br>Anyway, having a look at Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc (as the three least b= uffed non-humans) and leaving aside Elf and the weird-ones for now...<br><b= r>Dwarf.<br>Nett primary attribute gain: +2<br>Nett secondary attribute gai= n: -2<br> (and while PB -2 isn't a big deal, the -1 TMR is a bit painful)<br>Pote= ntial over 25: PS, EN, WP<br>Bonuses: Dark vision, assay gems and bullion, = 1/2 EM Ranger mountain or caverns, 2x alcohol.<br><br>Halfling<br>Nett prim= ary attribute gain: -1<br> Nett secondary attribute gain: -1<br>Potential over 25: MD, AG, WP<br>Bonus= es: Infravision, +20% stealth, 1/2 EM Thief, the volcano thing.<br><br>Orc<= br>Nett primary attribute gain: -1<br>Nett secondary attribute gain: -1<br> (though that's PB, and the +2 FT and +1 NA are pretty nice)<br>Potentia= l over 25: PS, EN<br>Bonuses: Infravision, -10% ranged in bright light, 3/4= EM Assassin or Warrior, fecund.<br><br>IMHO to offer a equitable starting = point (and I assume that's what we desire since otherwise it would be e= asiest to say "pick a race, any race and off you go") a human &qu= ot;package" needs to be about as good / bad as these.<br> <br>Currently humans have +10% reaction... which rates about as useful as t= he alcohol, volcanoes, and fecundity, so...<br>+1 on a stat of the player&#= 39;s choice (with the potential of over 25) -- this is a big deal as it mea= ns the player can fit it to their own character conception whereas the non-= human ones are fixed. Want to be a great dwarf wizard? You're MA will a= lways be lower, etc. (Basically little stat benefit unless conforming to th= e stereotypes).<br> =A01/2 EM on a skill or, 3/4 EM on two (Navigator? Merchant? both... they&#= 39;re not that big a deal)<br>And we're left with a bonus on the order = of the dark sight of the three races above (I'm not sure what to do for= this one, but various suggestion have been made).<br> <br>Elves... may need a nerf bat. :)<br></div></div></div> --047d7b5d8cd7674f7204d105d8b7-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:37:10 +1300 |
--bcaec51d2102f2111e04d1077229 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Martin Dickson wrote: I thought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure are added to those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost if they were to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast sooner or later but the non-humans have a head-start. No, I was responding to Michael. It seemed to me he was intimating that the Racial Tax was meant to pay for the advantages that inhumans start out with, the acquisition of which is purely linear. In other words, if your inhuman race gives you 3 special abilities, you will acquire just as many as the human does. So, all other things being equal, your inhuman will have 3 extra special abilities. Martin Dickson wrote: If that's the case then the duration of the campaign isn't terrifically relevant... or if it is, then it's more relevant in the other direction; characters spend a very long time as non-newbies and any starting benefits are proportionally less important. I believe that the length of the campaign is important, because this creates extremely long lived characters. In another game, the cost/benefit analysis of race would not be terribly significant because one is not going to be playing the character for 30 odd years. It is in this kind of extended play that we are having to look at different ways of designing the game. I am interested in creating behaviour that encourages people to play humans rather than have any more reason to play inhumans. I do not particularly want to define what it is to be human, but rather, apply a penalty on inhumans because this is easier and less prone to disagreement as to what it is to be human. Earthdawn does this, i.e. penalises the choice of inhuman race, and it works well. People ONLY choose inhumans because they have a particular idea of a character in mind. We can tell this because they selected it in the face of a nett disadvantage. I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fact, an argument in favour of keeping it because it is clear that it is the only thing, over the longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player from choosing an inhuman. Martin Dickson outlined the range of racial bonuses which I won't copy here. I don't agree with the analysis at all. Very few people create an elf or hobbit to be a plate wearing meat shield, it is rare to find a dwarf who plans on being a primary spell caster. All other things being equal, players choose a race to maximise a particular kind of character, one that will primarily be advantaged by having the appropriate stat bonuses and insignificantly disadvantaged by suffering the stat penalties. On 17 December 2012 18:42, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other games >> are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' and I >> see that I should actually have written 'All other games are systems based >> around single campaign games of limited duration.' > > > I think I may have misunderstood your position earlier then Jim. I > thought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure are added > to those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost if they > were to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast sooner > or later but the non-humans have a head-start. > > If that's the case then the duration of the campaign isn't terrifically > relevant... or if it is, then it's more relevant in the other direction; > characters spend a very long time as non-newbies and any starting benefits > are proportionally less important. > > Anyway, having a look at Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc (as the three least > buffed non-humans) and leaving aside Elf and the weird-ones for now... > > Dwarf. > Nett primary attribute gain: +2 > Nett secondary attribute gain: -2 > (and while PB -2 isn't a big deal, the -1 TMR is a bit painful) > Potential over 25: PS, EN, WP > Bonuses: Dark vision, assay gems and bullion, 1/2 EM Ranger mountain or > caverns, 2x alcohol. > > Halfling > Nett primary attribute gain: -1 > Nett secondary attribute gain: -1 > Potential over 25: MD, AG, WP > Bonuses: Infravision, +20% stealth, 1/2 EM Thief, the volcano thing. > > Orc > Nett primary attribute gain: -1 > Nett secondary attribute gain: -1 > (though that's PB, and the +2 FT and +1 NA are pretty nice) > Potential over 25: PS, EN > Bonuses: Infravision, -10% ranged in bright light, 3/4 EM Assassin or > Warrior, fecund. > > IMHO to offer a equitable starting point (and I assume that's what we > desire since otherwise it would be easiest to say "pick a race, any race > and off you go") a human "package" needs to be about as good / bad as these. > > Currently humans have +10% reaction... which rates about as useful as the > alcohol, volcanoes, and fecundity, so... > +1 on a stat of the player's choice (with the potential of over 25) -- > this is a big deal as it means the player can fit it to their own character > conception whereas the non-human ones are fixed. Want to be a great dwarf > wizard? You're MA will always be lower, etc. (Basically little stat benefit > unless conforming to the stereotypes). > 1/2 EM on a skill or, 3/4 EM on two (Navigator? Merchant? both... they're > not that big a deal) > And we're left with a bonus on the order of the dark sight of the three > races above (I'm not sure what to do for this one, but various suggestion > have been made). > > Elves... may need a nerf bat. :) > --bcaec51d2102f2111e04d1077229 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><font color=3D"#000099" face=3D"georgia,serif">Martin Dickson wrote:</= font></div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"><font color=3D"#000099">=A0I t= hought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure are added t= o those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost if they were= to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast sooner or = later but the non-humans have a head-start.</font><br> </font></div><div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">No, I was responding to Mich= ael. It seemed to me he was intimating that the Racial Tax was meant to pay= for the advantages that inhumans start out with, the acquisition of which = is purely linear. In other words, if your inhuman race gives you 3 special = abilities, you will acquire just as many as the human does. So, all other t= hings being equal, your inhuman will have 3 extra special abilities.</font>= </div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font color=3D"#000099" fa= ce=3D"Georgia">Martin Dickson wrote:</font></div><div><font color=3D"#00009= 9" face=3D"georgia,serif">If that's the case then the duration of the c= ampaign isn't terrifically relevant... or if it is, then it's more = relevant in the other direction; characters spend a very long time as non-n= ewbies and any starting benefits are proportionally less important.</font><= /div> <div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">I believe that the = length of the campaign is important, because this creates extremely long li= ved characters. In another game, the cost/benefit analysis of race would no= t be terribly significant because one is not going to be playing the charac= ter for 30 odd years. It is in this kind of extended play that we are havin= g to look at different ways of designing the game.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia">I am interested in creating behaviour that enco= urages people to play humans rather than have any more reason to play inhum= ans. I do not particularly want to define what it is to be human, but rathe= r, apply a penalty on inhumans because this is easier and less prone to dis= agreement as to what it is to be human. </font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia">Earthdawn does this, i.e. penalises the choice = of inhuman race, and it works well. People ONLY choose inhumans because the= y have a particular idea of a character in mind. We can tell this because t= hey=A0selected it in the face of a nett disadvantage.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia">I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fac= t, an argument in favour of keeping it because it is clear that it is the o= nly thing, over the longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player = from choosing an inhuman.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia"><fo= nt color=3D"#000099">Martin Dickson outlined the range of racial bonuses wh= ich I won't copy here.</font> </font></div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">= </font>=A0</div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia">I don't agree with the analysis at all.</fo= nt></div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">Very few people create an elf or hobbi= t=A0to be a plate wearing meat shield, i</font><font face=3D"Georgia">t is = rare to find a dwarf who=A0plans on being=A0a primary spell caster. All oth= er things being equal, players choose a race to maximise a particular kind = of character,=A0one that=A0will primarily be advantaged by having the appro= priate stat bonuses and insignificantly disadvantaged by suffering the stat= penalties. </font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia"></f= ont>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D= "Georgia"></font>=A0</div><p><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font>=A0</p><di= v><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font>=A0</div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif">=A0</font></div><font face=3D"georgia,ser= if"><div><br></div></font><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 D= ecember 2012 18:42, Martin Dickson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:= martin.dickson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>>= ;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div= class=3D"im"> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D= "mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>><= /span> wrote:<br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left= :1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-s= tyle:solid" class=3D"gmail_quote"> Actually, I have looked at the statement were I said 'Most other games = are systems based around single campaign games of limited duration.' an= d I see that I should actually have written 'All other games are system= s based around single campaign games of limited duration.' </blockquote= > </div><div><br>I think I may have misunderstood your position earlier then = Jim.=A0 I thought you were arguing that since benefits gained on adventure = are added to those from character gen then humans needed an initial boost i= f they were to level the playing field -- everyone turns into a guild-beast= sooner or later but the non-humans have a head-start.<br> <br>If that's the case then the duration of the campaign isn't terr= ifically relevant... or if it is, then it's more relevant in the other = direction; characters spend a very long time as non-newbies and any startin= g benefits are proportionally less important.<br> <br>Anyway, having a look at Dwarf, Halfling, and Orc (as the three least b= uffed non-humans) and leaving aside Elf and the weird-ones for now...<br><b= r>Dwarf.<br>Nett primary attribute gain: +2<br>Nett secondary attribute gai= n: -2<br> (and while PB -2 isn't a big deal, the -1 TMR is a bit painful)<br>Pote= ntial over 25: PS, EN, WP<br>Bonuses: Dark vision, assay gems and bullion, = 1/2 EM Ranger mountain or caverns, 2x alcohol.<br><br>Halfling<br>Nett prim= ary attribute gain: -1<br> Nett secondary attribute gain: -1<br>Potential over 25: MD, AG, WP<br>Bonus= es: Infravision, +20% stealth, 1/2 EM Thief, the volcano thing.<br><br>Orc<= br>Nett primary attribute gain: -1<br>Nett secondary attribute gain: -1<br> (though that's PB, and the +2 FT and +1 NA are pretty nice)<br>Potentia= l over 25: PS, EN<br>Bonuses: Infravision, -10% ranged in bright light, 3/4= EM Assassin or Warrior, fecund.<br><br>IMHO to offer a equitable starting = point (and I assume that's what we desire since otherwise it would be e= asiest to say "pick a race, any race and off you go") a human &qu= ot;package" needs to be about as good / bad as these.<br> <br>Currently humans have +10% reaction... which rates about as useful as t= he alcohol, volcanoes, and fecundity, so...<br>+1 on a stat of the player&#= 39;s choice (with the potential of over 25) -- this is a big deal as it mea= ns the player can fit it to their own character conception whereas the non-= human ones are fixed. Want to be a great dwarf wizard? You're MA will a= lways be lower, etc. (Basically little stat benefit unless conforming to th= e stereotypes).<br> =A01/2 EM on a skill or, 3/4 EM on two (Navigator? Merchant? both... they&#= 39;re not that big a deal)<br>And we're left with a bonus on the order = of the dark sight of the three races above (I'm not sure what to do for= this one, but various suggestion have been made).<br> <br>Elves... may need a nerf bat. :)<br></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br> --bcaec51d2102f2111e04d1077229-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Martin Dickson |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:07:51 +1300 |
--f46d043c7bd4b0213f04d107e0fb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fact, an argument in favour of > keeping it because it is clear that it is the only thing, over the > longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player from choosing an > inhuman. I believe the opposition stems (largely) from a feeling that over that extended life of the campaign the tax is grossly out of proportion with the benefits of being an non-human. I suspect (and it's just a WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP bonus as their racial ability there may be less opposition. --f46d043c7bd4b0213f04d107e0fb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 17, 2= 012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona= @gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>= <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <font face=3D"Georgia">I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fact, an= argument in favour of keeping it because it is clear that it is the only t= hing, over the longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player from = choosing an inhuman.</font></blockquote> <div><br>I believe the opposition stems (largely) from a feeling that over = that extended life of the campaign the tax is grossly out of proportion wit= h the benefits of being an non-human.<br><br>I suspect (and it's just a= WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP bonus as their racial ability= there may be less opposition.<br> </div></div></div> --f46d043c7bd4b0213f04d107e0fb-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |
| Subject | Re: [dq] Changing Racial Tax |
|---|---|
| From | Jim Arona |
| Date | Mon, 17 Dec 2012 21:29:49 +1300 |
--f46d0438945548fb4904d1082fbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Martin Dickson wrote: I suspect (and it's just a WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP bonus as their racial ability there may be less opposition. It wouldn't act as a credible reason against choosing an inhuman. Observed in that light, what slight advantage being human provides is revealed. Even if they earnt 20% more Experience. Equity, it seems to me, doesn't come into this. Yes, I know it must be frustrating to lose Experience and to see no end of it. But this contract has no invisible fine print. It's quite clear that this was the cost of being inhuman. And, it does disincline some people from choosing them. Personally, I don't believe any PC should be playing elves, although the others I could live with. I could live with half-elven, too. And, no, this is not because of concerns over how one plays immortal humanoids. It is because it makes elves quotidien, dull and nothing at all like Tolkien elves. On 17 December 2012 21:07, Martin Dickson <martin.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fact, an argument in favour >> of keeping it because it is clear that it is the only thing, over the >> longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player from choosing an >> inhuman. > > > I believe the opposition stems (largely) from a feeling that over that > extended life of the campaign the tax is grossly out of proportion with the > benefits of being an non-human. > > I suspect (and it's just a WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP > bonus as their racial ability there may be less opposition. > --f46d0438945548fb4904d1082fbb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div><font color=3D"#000099" face=3D"georgia,serif">Martin Dickson wrote:</= font></div><div><font color=3D"#000099" face=3D"georgia,serif">I suspect (a= nd it's just a WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP bonus as th= eir racial ability there may be less opposition.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"georgia,serif"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"georgi= a,serif"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">It wouldn't act as= a credible reason against choosing an inhuman. Observed in that light, wha= t slight advantage being human provides is revealed. Even if they earnt 20%= more Experience.</font></div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">Equ= ity, it seems to me, doesn't come into this. Yes, I know it must be fru= strating to lose Experience and to see no end of it. But this contract has = no invisible fine print. It's quite clear that this was the cost of bei= ng inhuman. And, it does disincline some people from choosing them.</font><= /div> <div><font face=3D"Georgia"></font>=A0</div><div><font face=3D"Georgia">Per= sonally, I don't believe any PC should be playing elves, although the o= thers I could live with. I could live with=A0 half-elven, too. And, no, thi= s is not because of concerns over how one plays immortal humanoids. It is b= ecause it makes elves quotidien, dull and nothing at all like Tolkien elves= .</font></div> <div><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 17 December 2012 21:07, Ma= rtin Dickson <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:martin.dickson@gmail.c= om" target=3D"_blank">martin.dickson@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><bl= ockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-col= or:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=3D= "gmail_quote"> <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"im"= >On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Arona <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= =3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmail.com</a>&g= t;</span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class= =3D"gmail_quote"> <font face=3D"Georgia">I see the opposition to a Racial Tax as, in fact, an= argument in favour of keeping it because it is clear that it is the only t= hing, over the longevity of a DQ character, that discourages a player from = choosing an inhuman.</font></blockquote> </div><div><br>I believe the opposition stems (largely) from a feeling that= over that extended life of the campaign the tax is grossly out of proporti= on with the benefits of being an non-human.<br><br>I suspect (and it's = just a WAG mind) that if humans were given a 10% XP bonus as their racial a= bility there may be less opposition.<br> </div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br> --f46d0438945548fb4904d1082fbb-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz -- | |