Messages for 22 October 2014

Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Julia McSpadden
Date	Wed, 22 Oct 2014 14:59:58 +1300
--089e013a0606148d260505f94e84 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013a0606148d240505f94e83 --089e013a0606148d240505f94e83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Have you noticed that a group of people whose high level characters are casters have rewritten mellee combat. and a group (not all) of people who play warriors are unhappy with the system - does this count for anything, is there and should there be a requirement to make the group that is mostly playing/ interacting with the rule, happy with the change Jules On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jonathan Bean <jonobean@gmail.com> wrote: > I am not sure about dramatic (unless we view it as a slow action replay > given the speed of most DQ combats :-) > I do feel that tension is a key element to a good combat. > > I don't think that it is a slow way to distribute loot :-) > > Jono > > On 20 October 2014 21:04, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> So if there is nothing dramatic happening in combat, and no roll playing >> >> Does this make it just a very slow way of distributing loot? >> On 20 Oct 2014 20:57, "Jonathan Bean" <jonobean@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Nice numbers Stephen & Kelsie. >>> >>> I like the numbers, I also think the change should happen. >>> >>> I hope and expect I can lean to handle 10% of the SC and then double it >>> and then double it for important points, without having to look at a ta= ble. >>> >>> But I do have some big concerns also. >>> >>> Agility fighters under this system will be obsolete unless we actively >>> make space for them. >>> I for one, do not like the idea of a range of characters / play going >>> away needlessly. >>> >>> When the dust settles, I hope that Agility fighters will have a space >>> and be viable as a fighting type/style under the Opposed combat system. >>> >>> As a fast of the cuff option without looking at any numbers, I would >>> like to see Agility fighters gain some large benefit which 'keeps them = in >>> the game' as such: >>> >>> Agility 21+ >>> Against engaged entities they gain a automatic column shift sideways >>> lowering the attackers quality by 1 (as a defence). >>> >>> Agility 26+ >>> Against engaged entities they gain a automatic column shift sideways >>> lowering the attackers quality by 2. Against entities at range & entiti= es >>> not in their melee zone they gain a automatic column shift sideways >>> lowering the attackers quality by 1. >>> >>> >>> Obviously policing of weight & encumbrance and high agility characters >>> would gain be pushed towards the GM. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> >>> Jono >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 20 October 2014 16:30, Struan Judd <slj@scifi.geek.nz> wrote: >>> >>>> Whoa. >>>> >>>> I like the numbers. I like the change to the resolution. I think the >>>> change should happen >>>> >>>> But I do have a big worry. >>>> >>>> Damage vs Armour. >>>> >>>> With more low SC vs high Def hits, damage that overwhelms armor become= s >>>> much more effective >>>> >>>> and with more EN and SG hits, damage in general becomes more effective= . >>>> >>>> I can see halving your SC for +5 Damage being very effective. >>>> >>>> And I'm not sure I like that. >>>> >>>> TTFN, Struan >>>> >>>> On 20 October 2014 16:07, Kelsie McArthur <kelsiemca@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Some counterpoints: >>>>> >>>>> a) I have never seen a "a dramatic description of events" in a DQ >>>>> combat. YMMV >>>>> >>>>> b) Re tables >>>>> I have just realised (shock horror) that Ian is right; you don't need >>>>> tables >>>>> >>>>> for example: I have a 78% chance of success and I roll a 23. >>>>> So 10% of 78 is 7.8 round up to 8, so 8 will be a quality 4, 23 is >>>>> not good enough, so double it (20%), 16, is a quality 3, still not >>>>> good enough, double that (40%) 32 is quality 2, and 23 is good >>>>> enough for that and anything more than 32 and less than 79 would be a >>>>> quality 1. >>>>> >>>>> c) re time to run a combat: >>>>> The proposal adds time in that every blow has to be countered, but >>>>> roll and roll response can be quick and is the same as magic works no= w. It >>>>> speeds it up in that no knowledge of the opponents numbers or state i= s >>>>> required. >>>>> >>>>> The current system is slowed down by having to ask the GM or target >>>>> what their defense is, are they out of fatigue, other possible modifi= ers to >>>>> defence, but once you know their defence, it is sped up by not having= to >>>>> have an interaction when you know that you have failed. >>>>> >>>>> This can go either way based on circumstances and some people have >>>>> "experienced" it each way. Nobody is experienced enough with the prop= osal >>>>> to expect that they are not being slowed by the learning curve. >>>>> >>>>> It may turn out that the consensus will be that people don't want to >>>>> spend time on the curve and want to stick with what they know, but th= at is >>>>> not strictly a fault of the system. >>>>> >>>>> d) re chances of criticals >>>>> Steve has worked up this chart of success results (shown below). The >>>>> 3rd section shows that in fact, SG are more likely for many combinati= ons >>>>> and not less likely. Now, whether more crits or fewer is preferable v= aries >>>>> by individual opinion. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand (ie not a counterpoint) the 1st section shows that = a >>>>> character that has been built with survivability based on never being= hit, >>>>> rather than absorbing damage will be stuffed under the proposed syste= m. >>>>> This is significant to some PCs playablility. On the other other hand= , high >>>>> defence NPC's are no longer frustratingly beyond hitting either. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> =E2=80=8B >>>>> >>>>> On 20 October 2014 11:49, William Dymock-Johnson < >>>>> dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I feel there are some more objections to the proposed system which >>>>>> need to be considered and discussed. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. It could take the roleplaying element entirely out of combat. Thi= s >>>>>> is true of most 'crunchy' or rules heavy systems. It means that play= will >>>>>> focus on consulting tables and charts rather than coming up with a d= ramatic >>>>>> description of events. A direct attack system also allows the player= to >>>>>> describe their action off the bat from one roll and doesn't have to = wait >>>>>> for another player to make their counter roll. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2. It does take longer. DQ combats are already ponderous glacial >>>>>> affairs in which one has considered notifying next of kin in case th= e >>>>>> sudden onset of old age takes it's toll. This will take even longer = as >>>>>> there are more dice to roll and consult and more tables to check. >>>>>> >>>>>> 3. Since there are more tables to consult players are not looking at >>>>>> one another or the GM which diminishes the roleplaying aspect. >>>>>> >>>>>> 4. Criticals can be negated. While this may sound good at first it >>>>>> means you end up seeing less of them which isn't as dramatic. When >>>>>> playtesting I noticed results hover about the 1-2 mark with the EN h= its >>>>>> replacing the crits in frequency. >>>>>> >>>>>> 5. Because you can now always hit your enemy players will choose >>>>>> 'agressive negotiations' even more than they do now. Violence may be= the >>>>>> best and seen as the only option. There will be less emphasis on sea= rching >>>>>> out the 'third option'. >>>>>> giving less >>>>>> >>>>>> 6. There are too many charts and tables to consult which could lead >>>>>> to increased run time load giving less time for creativity. Players, >>>>>> especially GMs only have so much RAM. >>>>>> >>>>>> 7. DQ is already a very numbers heavy game and that has driven off >>>>>> some potential players as well as encouraging various types of bean >>>>>> counting munckinism. More crunch and rules will exacerbate this. >>>>>> >>>>>> The intent of the rules is good. It is an attempt to address the >>>>>> absurdly large numbers that now fly about. However I feel this is a = case of >>>>>> treating the symptoms and not the actual disease which may well end = up >>>>>> killing the patient. >>>>>> >>>>>> William DJ >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Kelsie McArthur <kelsiemca@gmail.co= m >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have made some minor edits to the document today. Nothing >>>>>>> significant. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kelsie >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 October 2014 19:17, Jonathan Bean <jonobean@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Special DQ Gods meeting >>>>>>>> Sunday the 9th of November >>>>>>>> 1:00 pm onwards >>>>>>>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Greetings all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the >>>>>>>> special DQ Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of >>>>>>>> November 2014, 1:00 pm 39 Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for >>>>>>>> Opposed Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that w= e >>>>>>>> need more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting= . This >>>>>>>> time will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list >>>>>>>> regarding the attached document. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of >>>>>>>> any scale and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards t= o the >>>>>>>> pending vote. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. = (That >>>>>>>> is this email) >>>>>>>> 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and >>>>>>>> interesting discussions. >>>>>>>> 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 >>>>>>>> pm. >>>>>>>> 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. >>>>>>>> 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between >>>>>>>> 2:00 pm and 2:30 pm. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or >>>>>>>> Andrew) with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to = go in the >>>>>>>> Rulebook. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into >>>>>>>> the Rules if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and a= ccepted. If >>>>>>>> the GMs feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on = 'Opposed >>>>>>>> Rolling Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be cla= rified and >>>>>>>> worked on again until they match. >>>>>>>> - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they >>>>>>>> simply be tabled at a Gods meeting. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players wil= l >>>>>>>> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules wh= ich hang >>>>>>>> off the Proposal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam >>>>>>>> Tenant :-), Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Ripos= te, Close >>>>>>>> combat rules, Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bon= us, Magic >>>>>>>> Resistance etc etc >>>>>>>> - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be >>>>>>>> play tested in relationship with the above core rules (if voted= in) and >>>>>>>> then voted on in the normal way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct thi= s >>>>>>>> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild mee= ting. I >>>>>>>> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the = 9th. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jonathan Bean >>>>>>>> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn >>>>>>>> P: +64 9 378 6635 >>>>>>>> M: +64 21 917 173 >>>>>>>> G: jonobean@gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Jonathan Bean >>> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn >>> P: +64 9 378 6635 >>> M: +64 21 917 173 >>> G: jonobean@gmail.com >>> >> > > > -- > Kind regards, > > Jonathan Bean > 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn > P: +64 9 378 6635 > M: +64 21 917 173 > G: jonobean@gmail.com > --089e013a0606148d240505f94e83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Have you noticed that a group of people whose high level c= haracters are casters have rewritten mellee combat.<div><br></div><div>and = a group (not all) of people who play warriors are unhappy with the system -= does this count for anything, is there and should there be =C2=A0a require= ment to make the group that is mostly playing/ interacting with the rule, h= appy with the change</div><div><br></div><div>Jules</div></div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:3= 4 PM, Jonathan Bean <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.= com" target=3D"_blank">jonobean@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockqu= ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I am not sure about dramatic (= unless we view it as a slow action replay given the speed of most DQ combat= s :-)</div><div>I do feel that tension is a key element to a good combat.<b= r></div><div><br></div><div>I don't think that it is a slow way to dist= ribute loot :-)<br></div><div><br></div><div>Jono</div></div><div class=3D"= HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai= l_quote">On 20 October 2014 21:04, Julia McSpadden <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a= href=3D"mailto:juliamcspadden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">juliamcspadden@= gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir= =3D"ltr">So if there is nothing dramatic happening in combat, and no roll p= laying</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">Does this make it just a very slow way of distributing loot?= </p><div><div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 Oct 2014 20:57, "Jonathan Bean" = <<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobean@gmail.= com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote= " style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><= div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>Nice numbers Stephen & Kelsie.<div><br><= /div><div>I like the numbers, I also think the change should happen.</div><= div><br></div><div>I hope and expect I can lean to handle 10% of the SC and= then double it and then double it for important points, without having to = look at a table.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>But I do have some big conc= erns also.</div><div><br></div><div>Agility fighters under this system will= be obsolete unless we actively make space for them.</div><div>I for one, d= o not like the idea of a range of characters / play going away needlessly.<= /div><div><br></div><div>When the dust settles, I hope that Agility fighter= s will have a space and be viable as a fighting type/style under the Oppose= d combat system.<br></div><div><br></div><div>As a fast of the cuff option = without looking at any numbers, I would like to see Agility fighters gain s= ome large benefit which 'keeps them in the game' as such:</div><blo= ckquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><i><b>Agil= ity 21+</b>=C2=A0</i></div><div><i>Against engaged entities they gain a aut= omatic column shift sideways lowering the attackers quality by 1 (as a defe= nce).</i></div><div><i><br></i></div><div><i><b>Agility 26+</b></i></div><d= iv><div><i>Against engaged entities they gain a automatic column shift side= ways lowering the attackers quality by 2. Against entities at range & e= ntities not in their melee zone they gain a automatic column shift sideways= lowering the attackers quality by 1.</i></div></div></blockquote><div><br>= </div><div>Obviously policing of weight & encumbrance and high agility = characters would gain be pushed towards the GM.</div><div><br></div><div>Ki= nd regards<br></div><div><br></div><div>Jono</div><div><br></div><div><br><= /div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div= ></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 Octo= ber 2014 16:30, Struan Judd <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:slj@sci= fi.geek.nz" target=3D"_blank">slj@scifi.geek.nz</a>></span> wrote:<br><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad= ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Whoa.<div><br></div><div>I like the numbers= . I like the change to the resolution. I think the change should happen</di= v><div><br></div><div>But I do have a big worry.</div><div><br></div><div>D= amage vs Armour.</div><div><br></div><div>With more low SC vs high Def hits= , damage that overwhelms armor becomes much more effective<br></div><div><b= r></div><div>and with more EN and SG hits, damage in general becomes more e= ffective.</div><div><br></div><div>I can see halving your SC for +5 Damage = being very effective.</div><div><br></div><div>And I'm not sure I like = that.</div><div><br></div><div>TTFN, Struan</div></div><div><div><div class= =3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 October 2014 16:07, K= elsie McArthur <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com"= target=3D"_blank">kelsiemca@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:= 1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left= :1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-siz= e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Some counterpoints:<br><br></div><div style=3D"fo= nt-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">a) I have nev= er seen a "a dramatic description of events" in a DQ combat. YMMV= <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color= :rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-siz= e:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>b) Re tables</b><br></div><div style=3D"font-f= amily:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I have just reali= sed (shock horror) that Ian is right; you don't need tables<br><br></di= v><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0= ,0)">for example: I have a 78% chance of success and I roll a 23. <br>So 10= % of 78 is 7.8 round up to 8, so <b>8</b> will be a quality 4, 23 is not go= od enough, so double it (20%), <b>16</b>, is a quality 3, still not good en= ough, double that (40%) <b>32</b> is quality 2, and 23 is good enough for t= hat and anything more than 32 and less than 79 would be a quality 1.<br><br= ></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rg= b(0,0,0)"><b>c) re time to run a combat:</b><br></div>The proposal adds tim= e in that every blow has to be countered, but roll and roll response can be= quick and is the same as magic works now. It speeds it up in that no knowl= edge of the opponents numbers or state is required.<br><div style=3D"font-f= amily:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>The current s= ystem is slowed down by having to ask the GM or target what their defense i= s, are they out of fatigue, other possible modifiers to defence, but once y= ou know their defence, it is sped up by not having to have an interaction w= hen you know that you have failed.<br><br><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,= sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">This can go either way based on circumstances and some people have=20 "experienced" it each way. Nobody is experienced enough with the= =20 proposal to expect that they are not being slowed by the learning curve. <br><br>It may turn out that the consensus will be that people don't w= ant to spend=20 time on the curve and want to stick with what they know, but that is not strictly a fault of the system.<br></div></div><div style=3D"font-family:t= ahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b><br></b></div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>d= ) re chances of criticals</b><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,san= s-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Steve has worked up this chart of= success results (shown below). The 3rd section shows that in fact, SG are = more likely for many combinations and not less likely. Now, whether more cr= its or fewer is preferable varies by individual opinion.<br></div><div styl= e=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>On= the other hand (ie not a counterpoint) the 1st section shows that a charac= ter that has been built with survivability based on never being hit, rather= than absorbing damage will be stuffed under the proposed system. This is s= ignificant to some PCs playablility. On the other other hand, high defence = NPC's are no longer frustratingly beyond hitting either.<br></div><div = style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b= r><img src=3D"cid:ii_i1h7oawu0_1492b692ca7a3b5a" height=3D"494" width=3D"45= 4"><br>=E2=80=8B<br></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla= ss=3D"gmail_quote">On 20 October 2014 11:49, William Dymock-Johnson <span d= ir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com" target=3D"= _blank">dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote= class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:= 1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left= :1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I feel there are some more objections to the propose= d system which need to be considered and discussed.<div><br></div><div>1. I= t could take the roleplaying element entirely out of combat. This is true o= f most 'crunchy' or rules heavy systems. It means that play will fo= cus on consulting tables and charts rather than coming up with a dramatic d= escription of events. A direct attack system also allows the player to desc= ribe their action off the bat from one roll and doesn't have to wait fo= r another player to make their counter roll.</div><div><br></div><div>2. It= does take longer. DQ combats are already ponderous glacial affairs in whic= h one has considered notifying next of kin in case the sudden onset of old = age takes it's toll. This will take even longer as there are more dice = to roll and consult and more tables to check.</div><div><br></div><div>3. S= ince there are more tables to consult players are not looking at one anothe= r or the GM which diminishes the roleplaying aspect.</div><div><br></div><d= iv>4. Criticals can be negated. While this may sound good at first it means= you end up seeing less of them which isn't as dramatic. When playtesti= ng I noticed results hover about the 1-2 mark with the EN hits replacing th= e crits in frequency.</div><div><br></div><div>5. Because you can now alway= s hit your enemy players will choose 'agressive negotiations' even = more than they do now. Violence may be the best and seen as the only option= . There will be less emphasis on searching out the 'third option'.<= /div><div>giving less</div><div><br></div><div>6. There are too many charts= and tables to consult which could lead to increased run time load giving l= ess time for creativity. Players, especially GMs only have so much RAM.</di= v><div><br></div><div>7. DQ is already a very numbers heavy game and that h= as driven off some potential players as well as encouraging various types o= f bean counting munckinism. More crunch and rules will exacerbate this.</di= v><div><br></div><div>The intent of the rules is good. It is an attempt to = address the absurdly large numbers that now fly about. However I feel this = is a case of treating the symptoms and not the actual disease which may wel= l end up killing the patient.</div><div><br></div><div>William DJ</div></di= v><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tu= e, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Kelsie McArthur <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= =3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kelsiemca@gmail.com</a>&g= t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0= px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde= r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-fa= mily:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I have made some m= inor edits to the document today. Nothing significant.<span><font color=3D"= #888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div sty= le=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Kelsi= e<br></div></font></span></div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di= v class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 October 2014 19:17, Jonathan Bean <span dir= =3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobe= an@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty= le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(= 204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di= v style=3D"text-align:center"><b>Special DQ Gods meeting=C2=A0</b></div><di= v style=3D"text-align:center">Sunday the 9th of November=C2=A0</div><div st= yle=3D"text-align:center">1:00 pm onwards</div><div><div style=3D"text-alig= n:center">39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.</div><div><br></div><div= >Greetings all,<br></div><div><br></div><div>I email this to the DQ email l= ist, as an agenda item for the special DQ Gods meeting I am calling on=C2= =A0<b>Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39 Sackville Street Grey Lyn= n Auckland.</b><br></div><div><br></div><div>Please find attached a MS Word= document for the Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system. I wish to tab= le this for a vote.</div><div><br></div><div>I am calling this meeting for = the 9th of November as I feel that we need more time than the normal 15-20 = mins before the Guild meeting. This time will be used to discuss the propos= al to be voted on.</div><div><br></div><div>I encourage all open and respec= tful debate on the DQ emailing list regarding the attached document.</div><= div><br></div><div>Here is my understanding of the process involving rule c= hanges of any scale and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards = to the pending vote.=C2=A0</div><div><ol><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Tab= le the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting.=C2=A0<b><i>(That i= s this email)</i></b><br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Talk about it = in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting discussions.<br></li><li = style=3D"margin-left:15px">Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starti= ng at 1:00 pm.<br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Discuss the proposal = for up to 90 mins.=C2=A0<br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">If we have = a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and 2:30 pm.<br></li>= </ol></div><div>If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or E= rrol or Andrew) with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to g= o in the Rulebook.</div></div><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Once writt= en (some time later) these core rules will go into the Rules if the GMs fee= l (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs feel the 'fl= eshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed Rolling Combat = system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on ag= ain until they match.<br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Some time late= r, once they have been reviewed then they simply be tabled at a Gods meetin= g.=C2=A0<br></li></ul><div>At the same time as the above we as GMs and inte= rested players will continue working on the supporting elements of the comb= at rules which hang off the Proposal.<br></div><ul><li style=3D"margin-left= :15px">These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant :-= ), Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rule= s, Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resistance et= c etc<br></li><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">I expect that these countless = supporting elements will be play tested in relationship with the above core= rules (if voted in) and then voted on in the normal way.<br></li></ul><div= ><div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">Stephen Martin = has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this substantial change to = a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting. I will ask Stephen to tal= k to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.<br></div><div style=3D"font= -family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></div></div><div>=C2=A0<br></d= iv><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br>Jonathan Bean<div>39 Sackville St, Grey= Lynn</div><div>P: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%209%20378%206635" value=3D"+6493786= 635" target=3D"_blank">+64 9 378 6635</a><br>M: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%2021%2= 0917%20173" value=3D"+6421917173" target=3D"_blank">+64 21 917 173</a><br>G= :=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobean@gma= il.com</a></div></div> </div> </blockquote></div><br></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= <div>Kind regards,</div><div><br>Jonathan Bean<div>39 Sackville St, Grey Ly= nn</div><div>P: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%209%20378%206635" value=3D"+6493786635= " target=3D"_blank">+64 9 378 6635</a><br>M: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%2021%2091= 7%20173" value=3D"+6421917173" target=3D"_blank">+64 21 917 173</a><br>G:= =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobean@gmai= l.com</a></div></div> </div></div> </blockquote></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>= <div>Kind regards,</div><div><br>Jonathan Bean<div>39 Sackville St, Grey Ly= nn</div><div>P: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%209%20378%206635" value=3D"+6493786635= " target=3D"_blank">+64 9 378 6635</a><br>M: <a href=3D"tel:%2B64%2021%2091= 7%20173" value=3D"+6421917173" target=3D"_blank">+64 21 917 173</a><br>G:= =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jonobean@gmai= l.com</a></div></div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> --089e013a0606148d240505f94e83-- --089e013a0606148d260505f94e84 Content-Type: image/png; name="OppRollChange.png" Content-Disposition: inline; filename="OppRollChange.png" 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Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Ian Wood
Date	Tue, 21 Oct 2014 20:45:27 -0700
---588606924-203658161-1413949527=:12872 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no idea what that means Julia.=0AAs I am the originating author, I g= uess your 'group' includes a subset of one - Me.=0AI began tinkering with t= his many years ago, well before Isil Eth was high level. Andrew, Errol and = others will vouch that did not work well, so i simplified it over the years= .. About two years ago it was ready to test.=0A=0A=0AI derived Opposed Rolli= ng from Harn Master and Adventurer taking account =0Aof Dean's ideas and th= ose of others. As William told me, success vs =0Asuccess rule sytems are qu= ite wide spread. =0A=0A=0AI am not aware of any favouring of casters, inste= ad it makes fighters more effective, it mixes it up a bit, as there is less= certainty.It certainly doesnt favour Isil Eth.=0A=0AI find the Opposed sys= tem to be fun, quick, simple and a little chaotic - no one has said the bas= e system is difficult to learn, indeed many have commented on how simple it= is.=0A=0A=0AI introduced the Quality 5 and 6 =0Aresults to reflect high le= vel pure fighters. Few fighter-mages will get =0Aover 200 strike chance, an= d few will get defence over 100. =0AI introduced the Quality 2 result to re= flect medium level fighters.=0A=0ALower level PCs will be able to hit tough= er NPCs a few times (vs natural 01 currently).=0AHigher level PCs will miss= low defence NPCs a few times (vs natural 00 curently).=0AHigher level PCs = will do many more EN results against low defence NPCS, which is fun.=0AIf G= obbo goes up against Sabrina he should expect to die. But he may get one go= od hit in.=0ACurently Gobbo (low to excreble) has no chance (01) of hitting= Sabrina.=0A=0AIf Sir Wojer (medium to delusions of competence) goes up aga= inst Sabrina, he could expect to get a couple of good hits in before he die= s.=0A=0A Both of these PCs have no offensive magics, gobbo is naturally o= ffensive but in a socially awkward way.=0A=0A=0AI beleive Stephen wrote a t= able explaining the increased likelihood of EN and SG results, especially h= igh level fighters hitting low. The GM gets to set the Strike chance of NPC= s so if a low level party encounters bad guys with SC 160+ and Def 120+ the= y may think about leaving before they get blood on teh floor.=0AOn the othe= r hand, a party up against one baddy will probably hurt them pretty badly.= =0A=0A=0AOddly enough, on line forums opine that opposed rolling systems te= nd to have more general results and fewer extreme results. i havent noticed= that, but i guess over time (1000s of rolls) it may be true.=0A=0A=0AI thi= nk all of this is good.=0AIan=0A=0A=0A>________________________________=0A>= From: Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com>=0A>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz = =0A>Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:59 PM=0A>Subject: Re: [dq] Special = DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system=0A> =0A>=0A>= =0A>Have you noticed that a group of people whose high level characters are= casters have rewritten mellee combat.=0A>=0A>=0A>and a group (not all) of = people who play warriors are unhappy with the system - does this count for = anything, is there and should there be a requirement to make the group tha= t is mostly playing/ interacting with the rule, happy with the change=0A>= =0A>=0A>Jules=0A>=0A>=0A>On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jonathan Bean <jo= nobean@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>=0A>I am not sure about dramatic (unless we vie= w it as a slow action replay given the speed of most DQ combats :-)=0A>>I d= o feel that tension is a key element to a good combat.=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>I= don't think that it is a slow way to distribute loot :-)=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A= >>Jono=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>On 20 October 2014 21:04, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspad= den@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>So if there is nothing dramatic happening in= combat, and no roll playing=0A>>>Does this make it just a very slow way of= distributing loot?=0A>>>On 20 Oct 2014 20:57, "Jonathan Bean" <jonobean@gm= ail.com> wrote:=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>>Nice numbers Stephen & Kelsie.=0A>>>>=0A>= >>>=0A>>>>I like the numbers, I also think the change should happen.=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>=0A>>>>I hope and expect I can lean to handle 10% of the SC and then= double it and then double it for important points, without having to look = at a table. =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>But I do have some big concerns also.=0A>>= >>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Agility fighters under this system will be obsolete unless = we actively make space for them.=0A>>>>I for one, do not like the idea of a= range of characters / play going away needlessly.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>When= the dust settles, I hope that Agility fighters will have a space and be vi= able as a fighting type/style under the Opposed combat system.=0A>>>>=0A>>>= >=0A>>>>=0A>>>>As a fast of the cuff option without looking at any numbers,= I would like to see Agility fighters gain some large benefit which 'keeps = them in the game' as such:=0A>>>>Agility 21+ =0A>>>>>Against engaged entiti= es they gain a automatic column shift sideways lowering the attackers quali= ty by 1 (as a defence).=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Agility 26+=0A>>>>>Against e= ngaged entities they gain a automatic column shift sideways lowering the at= tackers quality by 2. Against entities at range & entities not in their mel= ee zone they gain a automatic column shift sideways lowering the attackers = quality by 1.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Obviously policing of weight & encumbranc= e and high agility characters would gain be pushed towards the GM.=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>=0A>>>>Kind regards=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Jono=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A= >>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>On 20 October 2014 16:30, Struan Judd <slj@scifi.geek.= nz> wrote:=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Whoa.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>I like the numbers. I = like the change to the resolution. I think the change should happen=0A>>>>>= =0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>But I do have a big worry.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Damage vs= Armour.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>With more low SC vs high Def hits, damage t= hat overwhelms armor becomes much more effective=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A= >>>>>and with more EN and SG hits, damage in general becomes more effective= ..=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>I can see halving your SC for +5 Damage being very= effective.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>And I'm not sure I like that.=0A>>>>>=0A= >>>>>=0A>>>>>TTFN, Struan=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>On 20 October 2014 16:07, = Kelsie McArthur <kelsiemca@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>>Some counterpoi= nts:=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>a) I have never seen a "a dramatic descripti= on of events" in a DQ combat. YMMV=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>b) Re= tables=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>I have just realised (shock horror) that Ian is ri= ght; you don't need tables=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>for example: I have a = 78% chance of success and I roll a 23. =0A>>>>>>So 10% of 78 is 7.8 round u= p to 8, so 8 will be a quality 4, 23 is not good enough, so double it (20%)= , 16, is a quality 3, still not good enough, double that (40%) 32 is qualit= y 2, and 23 is good enough for that and anything more than 32 and less than= 79 would be a quality 1.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>c) re time to run a com= bat:=0A>>>>>>The proposal adds time in that every blow has to be countered,= but roll and roll response can be quick and is the same as magic works now= .. It speeds it up in that no knowledge of the opponents numbers or state is= required.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>The current system is slowed down by h= aving to ask the GM or target what their defense is, are they out of fatigu= e, other possible modifiers to defence, but once you know their defence, it= is sped up by not having to have an interaction when you know that you hav= e failed.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>This can go either way based on circums= tances and some people have =0A"experienced" it each way. Nobody is experie= nced enough with the =0Aproposal to expect that they are not being slowed b= y the learning curve. =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>It may turn out that the consensus = will be that people don't want to spend =0Atime on the curve and want to st= ick with what they know, but that is not=0A strictly a fault of the system.= =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>d) re chances of criticals=0A>>>>>>=0A>= >>>>>Steve has worked up this chart of success results (shown below). The 3= rd section shows that in fact, SG are more likely for many combinations and= not less likely. Now, whether more crits or fewer is preferable varies by = individual opinion.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>On the other hand (ie not a c= ounterpoint) the 1st section shows that a character that has been built wit= h survivability based on never being hit, rather than absorbing damage will= be stuffed under the proposed system. This is significant to some PCs play= ablility. On the other other hand, high defence NPC's are no longer frustra= tingly beyond hitting either.=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=E2=80=8B= =0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>On 20 October 2014 11:49, William Dymoc= k-Johnson <dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com> wrote:=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>I feel t= here are some more objections to the proposed system which need to be consi= dered and discussed.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>1. It could take the role= playing element entirely out of combat. This is true of most 'crunchy' or r= ules heavy systems. It means that play will focus on consulting tables and = charts rather than coming up with a dramatic description of events. A direc= t attack system also allows the player to describe their action off the bat= from one roll and doesn't have to wait for another player to make their co= unter roll.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>2. It does take longer. DQ combats= are already ponderous glacial affairs in which one has considered notifyin= g next of kin in case the sudden onset of old age takes it's toll. This wil= l take even longer as there are more dice to roll and consult and more tabl= es to check.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>3. Since there are more tables to= consult players are not looking at one another or the GM which diminishes = the roleplaying aspect.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>4. Criticals can be ne= gated. While this may sound good at first it means you end up seeing less o= f them which isn't as dramatic. When playtesting I noticed results hover ab= out the 1-2 mark with the EN hits replacing the crits in frequency.=0A>>>>>= >>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>5. Because you can now always hit your enemy players = will choose 'agressive negotiations' even more than they do now. Violence m= ay be the best and seen as the only option. There will be less emphasis on = searching out the 'third option'.=0A>>>>>>>giving less=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>6. There are too many charts and tables to consult which could le= ad to increased run time load giving less time for creativity. Players, esp= ecially GMs only have so much RAM.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>7. DQ is al= ready a very numbers heavy game and that has driven off some potential play= ers as well as encouraging various types of bean counting munckinism. More = crunch and rules will exacerbate this.=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>The int= ent of the rules is good. It is an attempt to address the absurdly large nu= mbers that now fly about. However I feel this is a case of treating the sym= ptoms and not the actual disease which may well end up killing the patient.= =0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>William DJ=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>On Tu= e, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Kelsie McArthur <kelsiemca@gmail.com> wrote:=0A= >>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>I have made some minor edits to the document today. Nothin= g significant.=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Kelsie=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>= =0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>On 12 October 2014 19:17, Jonathan Bean <jonobean@gma= il.com> wrote:=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>Special DQ Gods meeting =0A>>>>>>>>>Sun= day the 9th of November =0A>>>>>>>>>1:00 pm onwards=0A>>>>>>>>>39 Sackville= Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Greetings a= ll,=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>I email this to the DQ e= mail list, as an agenda item for the special DQ Gods meeting I am calling o= n Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39 Sackville Street Grey Lynn Au= ckland.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Please find attached= a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system. I w= ish to table this for a vote.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>I am calli= ng this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need more time th= an the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time will be used t= o discuss the proposal to be voted on.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>I= encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list regarding= the attached document.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Here is my under= standing of the process involving rule changes of any scale and size in DQ.= I have of course written it in regards to the pending vote. =0A>>>>>>>>>= =091. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. (That is = this email)=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=092. Talk about it in a civilised way l= eading to fun and interesting discussions.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=093. Hav= e the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>= >>>>>>>>=094. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. =0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>= >>>=095. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm a= nd 2:30 pm.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>If passed by vote, then we will charge s= omeone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew) with the responsibility of writing up th= e actual Rules to go in the Rulebook.=0A>>>>>>>>>=09* Once written (some ti= me later) these core rules will go into the Rules if the GMs feel (by vote)= that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs feel the 'fleshed out Rules= ' do not match the voted on 'Opposed Rolling Combat system', then they may = ask for an area to be clarified and worked on again until they match.=0A>>>= >>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=09* Some time later, once they have been reviewed then t= hey simply be tabled at a Gods meeting. =0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>At the same= time as the above we as GMs and interested players will continue working o= n the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang off the Proposal.= =0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=09* These items are things like (in no particular = order): Adam Tenant :-), Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Ripo= ste, Close combat rules, Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonu= s, Magic Resistance etc etc=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=09* I expect that these= countless supporting elements will be play tested in relationship with the= above core rules (if voted in) and then voted on in the normal way.=0A>>>>= >>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to di= rect this substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild me= eting. I will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the = 9th.=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>> =0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>= >>Kind regards,=0A>>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>>>Jonathan Bean=0A>>>>>>>>>39 Sackvill= e St, Grey Lynn=0A>>>>>>>>>P: +64 9 378 6635=0A>>>>>>>>>M: +64 21 917 173= =0A>>>>>>>>>G: jonobean@gmail.com=0A>>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>>=0A>>>>>>=0A>>>>>=0A>= >>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>>-- =0A>>>>=0A>>>>Kind regards,=0A>>>>=0A>>>>Jonatha= n Bean=0A>>>>39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn=0A>>>>P: +64 9 378 6635=0A>>>>M: +6= 4 21 917 173=0A>>>>G: jonobean@gmail.com=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>=0A>>-- =0A>>=0A>>Ki= nd regards,=0A>>=0A>>Jonathan Bean=0A>>39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn=0A>>P: +6= 4 9 378 6635=0A>>M: +64 21 917 173=0A>>G: jonobean@gmail.com=0A>=0A>=0A> ---588606924-203658161-1413949527=:12872 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="-588606924-1578039282-1413949527=:12872" ---588606924-1578039282-1413949527=:12872 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He= lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;fo= nt-size:16px"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">I have= no idea what that means Julia.</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, = 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Ar= ial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: no= rmal;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">As I am the originating autho= r, I guess your 'group' includes a subset of one - Me.</span></div><div sty= le=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helv= etica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: tran= sparent; font-style: normal;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">I bega= n tinkering with this many years ago, well before Isil Eth was high level. = Andrew, Errol and others will vouch that did not work well, so i simplified= it over the years. About two years ago it was ready to test.<br style=3D"" class=3D""></span>= </div><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D""></span><div cla= ss=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: Helveti= caNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-= color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">I=0A d= erived Opposed Rolling from Harn Master and Adventurer taking account =0Aof= Dean's ideas and those of others. As William told me, success vs =0Asucces= s rule sytems are quite wide spread. <br style=3D"" class=3D""></span></div= ><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family= : HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; ba= ckground-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D""= ></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-= family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-ser= if; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" cl= ass=3D"">I am not aware of any favouring of casters, instead it makes fight= ers more effective, it mixes it up a bit, as there is less certainty.</span= ></div><span style=3D"" class=3D"">It certainly doesnt favour Isil Eth.</sp= an><span style=3D"" class=3D""><br><br>I find the Opposed system to be fun,= quick, simple and a little chaotic - no one has said the base system is di= fficult to learn, indeed many have commented on how simple it is.<br style= =3D"" class=3D""></span><span style=3D"" class=3D""></span><div class=3D"" style= =3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvet= ica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transp= arent; font-style: normal;"><br style=3D"" class=3D""></div><div style=3D""= class=3D"">I introduced the Quality 5 and 6 =0Aresults to reflect high lev= el pure fighters. Few fighter-mages will get =0Aover 200 strike chance, and= few will get defence over 100. </div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I int= roduced the Quality 2 result to reflect medium level fighters.<br style=3D"= " class=3D""></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D""></d= iv><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Lower level PCs will be able to hit tougher = NPCs a few times (vs natural 01 currently).</span><div class=3D"" style=3D"= color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica = Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparen= t; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Higher level PCs will m= iss low defence NPCs a few times (vs natural 00 curently).</span></div><div= class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: Hel= veticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; backgro= und-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Hi= gher level PCs will do many more EN results against low defence NPCS, which is fun.</span></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">If Gobbo goes up against Sa= brina he should expect to die. But he may get one good hit in.</div><div st= yle=3D"" class=3D"">Curently Gobbo (low to excreble) has no chance (01) of = hitting Sabrina.<br style=3D"" class=3D""></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">= If Sir Wojer (medium to delusions of competence) goes up against Sabrina, h= e could expect to get a couple of good hits in before he dies.<br style=3D"= " class=3D""></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:= 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Gra= nde,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"> &= nbsp; Both of these PCs have no offensive magics, gobbo is naturally offens= ive but in a socially awkward way.<br style=3D"" class=3D""></div><div clas= s=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetic= aNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-c= olor: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0= ); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Ari= al,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: nor= mal;">I beleive Stephen wrote a table explaining the increased likelihood o= f EN and SG results, especially high level fighters hitting low. The GM get= s to set the Strike chance of NPCs so if a low level party encounters bad g= uys with SC 160+ and Def 120+ they may think about leaving before they get = blood on teh floor.</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font= -size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Luci= da Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">O= n the other hand, a party up against one baddy will probably hurt them pret= ty badly.<br></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:= 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br= ></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-= family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-ser= if; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;">Oddly enough, on li= ne forums opine that opposed rolling systems tend to have more general resu= lts and fewer extreme results. i havent noticed that, but i guess over time= (1000s of rolls) it may be true.<br></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: = rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,He= lvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font= -style: normal;"><br></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); fo= nt-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lu= cida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; font-style: normal;"= >I think all of this is good.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"= " class=3D""></div>Ian<br style=3D"" class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"col= or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 16px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neu= e,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transparent; = font-style: normal;"></div><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"border-left: 2px= solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-top: 5px; padding-left: 5= px;"> <div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,= Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div class= =3D"" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial= , Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style=3D"" class=3D"" = dir=3D"ltr"> <hr style=3D"" class=3D"" size=3D"1"> <font style=3D"" class= =3D"" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> <b style=3D"" class=3D""><span class=3D"" = style=3D"font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> Julia McSpadden <juliamcspa= dden@gmail.com><br style=3D"" class=3D""> <b style=3D"" class=3D""><span= class=3D"" style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz <br style=3D"" class=3D""> <b style=3D"" class=3D""><span = class=3D"" style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, October= 22, 2014 2:59 PM<br style=3D"" class=3D""> <b style=3D"" class=3D""><span = class=3D"" style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Specia= l DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br style=3D"= " class=3D""> </font> </div> <div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" clas= s=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"" id=3D"yiv0698187512"><div style=3D"" clas= s=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr">Have you noticed that a group= of people whose high level characters are casters have rewritten mellee co= mbat.<div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></= div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">and a group (not all) of people who play war= riors are unhappy with the system - does this count for anything, is there = and should there be  a requirement to make the group that is mostly pl= aying/ interacting with the rule, happy with the change</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"= none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Jules</div></div><div style=3D"" cla= ss=3D"" id=3D"yiv0698187512yqt46153"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On Tue, Oct 21, = 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jonathan Bean <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><= <a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:= jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jo= nobean@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"no= ne"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">I am not sure about dramatic (unless we view it as a slow = action replay given the speed of most DQ combats :-)</div><div style=3D"" c= lass=3D"">I do feel that tension is a key element to a good combat.<br styl= e=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I don't think t= hat it is a slow way to distribute loot :-)<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Jono</div></div><div style=3D"" = class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On 20 October 20= 14 21:04, Julia McSpadden <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><<a st= yle=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:julia= mcspadden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:juliamcspadden@gmail.= com">juliamcspadden@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"= " clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr= ">So if there is nothing dramatic happening in combat, and no roll playing<= /div>=0A<div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr">Does this make it just a ver= y slow way of distributing loot?</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">=0A<div style=3D"" class=3D"">On 20 Oct 2014 20:57, "Jonat= han Bean" <<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymai= lto=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jonobean= @gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clea= r=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><div= style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>Nice = numbers Stephen & Kelsie.<div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" clas= s=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I like the numbers, = I also think the change should happen.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br = style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I hop= e and expect I can lean to handle 10% of the SC and then double it and then= double it for important points, without having to look at a table. </= div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></d= iv><div style=3D"" class=3D"">But I do have some big concerns also.</div><div style=3D"" clas= s=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class= =3D"">Agility fighters under this system will be obsolete unless we activel= y make space for them.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I for one, do not li= ke the idea of a range of characters / play going away needlessly.</div><di= v style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div= style=3D"" class=3D"">When the dust settles, I hope that Agility fighters = will have a space and be viable as a fighting type/style under the Opposed = combat system.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"= " class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D""= class=3D"">As a fast of the cuff option without looking at any numbers, I = would like to see Agility fighters gain some large benefit which 'keeps the= m in the game' as such:</div><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 4= 0px;border:none;padding:0px;"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><i style=3D"" class=3D""><b style=3D"" class=3D"">Agility 21+</= b> </i></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><i style=3D"" class=3D"">Again= st engaged entities they gain a automatic column shift sideways lowering th= e attackers quality by 1 (as a defence).</i></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"= "><i style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></i></d= iv><div style=3D"" class=3D""><i style=3D"" class=3D""><b style=3D"" class= =3D"">Agility 26+</b></i></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" c= lass=3D""><i style=3D"" class=3D"">Against engaged entities they gain a aut= omatic column shift sideways lowering the attackers quality by 2. Against e= ntities at range & entities not in their melee zone they gain a automat= ic column shift sideways lowering the attackers quality by 1.</i></div></di= v></blockquote><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Obviously policing of weight &am= p; encumbrance and high agility characters would gain be pushed towards the GM.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" = clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Kind regards<br style=3D"" = class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" c= lass=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Jono</div><div st= yle=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div sty= le=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div styl= e=3D"" class=3D""> </div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" cla= ss=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" clas= s=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" c= lear=3D"none"></div></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On 20 October 2014 16:30, S= truan Judd <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class= =3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:slj@scifi.geek.nz" = target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:slj@scifi.geek.nz">slj@scifi.geek.nz</a>></span> wrote:<= br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"mar= gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2= 04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D"" class=3D"" d= ir=3D"ltr">Whoa.<div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I like the numbers. I like the c= hange to the resolution. I think the change should happen</div><div style= =3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">But I do have a big worry.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""= ><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">= Damage vs Armour.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D""= clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">With more low SC vs high D= ef hits, damage that overwhelms armor becomes much more effective<br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">and with more E= N and SG hits, damage in general becomes more effective.</div><div style=3D= "" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"= " class=3D"">I can see halving your SC for +5 Damage being very effective.<= /div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></= div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">And I'm not sure I like that.</div><div styl= e=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">TTFN, Struan</div></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div st= yle=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" cl= ear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On 20 October 2014 16:07, Kelsie Mc= Arthur <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class=3D""= rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com" tar= get=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com">kelsiemca@gmail.com</a>&= gt;</span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><blockquote class= =3D"" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:= rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D""= class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-s= erif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Some counterpoints:<br style=3D"" c= lass=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><di= v class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:= rgb(0,0,0);">a) I have never seen a "a dramatic description of events" in a= DQ combat. YMMV<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class= =3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0= ,0);"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style= =3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><b st= yle=3D"" class=3D"">b) Re tables</b><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none= "></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:s= mall;color:rgb(0,0,0);">I have just realised (shock horror) that Ian is right; you don't need tables<br style=3D"" class=3D"" = clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D= "" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)= ;">for example: I have a 78% chance of success and I roll a 23. <br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">So 10% of 78 is 7.8 round up to 8, so <b st= yle=3D"" class=3D"">8</b> will be a quality 4, 23 is not good enough, so do= uble it (20%), <b style=3D"" class=3D"">16</b>, is a quality 3, still not g= ood enough, double that (40%) <b style=3D"" class=3D"">32</b> is quality 2,= and 23 is good enough for that and anything more than 32 and less than 79 = would be a quality 1.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"= " class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:taho= ma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><b style=3D"" class=3D"">= c) re time to run a combat:</b><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></d= iv>The proposal adds time in that every blow has to be countered, but roll and roll response can be quick and is the same as magi= c works now. It speeds it up in that no knowledge of the opponents numbers = or state is required.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div class=3D= "" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0)= ;"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">The current system is slowed do= wn by having to ask the GM or target what their defense is, are they out of= fatigue, other possible modifiers to defence, but once you know their defe= nce, it is sped up by not having to have an interaction when you know that = you have failed.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" cla= ss=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-se= rif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);">This=0A can go either way based on c= ircumstances and some people have =0A"experienced" it each way. Nobody is e= xperienced enough with the =0Aproposal to expect that they are not being sl= owed by the learning curve.=0A <br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br= style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">It may turn out that the consensus wi= ll be that people don't want to spend =0Atime on the curve and want to stic= k with what they know, but that is not=0A strictly a fault of the system.<b= r style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div><div class=3D"" style=3D= "font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><b style= =3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></b></div><div cl= ass=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(= 0,0,0);"><b style=3D"" class=3D"">d) re chances of criticals</b><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:= tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Steve has worked up t= his chart of success results (shown below). The 3rd section shows that in f= act, SG are more likely for many combinations and not less likely. Now, whe= ther more crits or fewer is preferable varies by individual opinion.<br sty= le=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-famil= y:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><br style=3D"" clas= s=3D"" clear=3D"none">On the other hand (ie not a counterpoint) the 1st sec= tion shows that a character that has been built with survivability based on never being hi= t, rather than absorbing damage will be stuffed under the proposed system. = This is significant to some PCs playablility. On the other other hand, high= defence NPC's are no longer frustratingly beyond hitting either.<br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:= tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"><img style=3D"" class=3D"" src=3D"cid:1.596913027@web1= 26105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com" height=3D"494" width=3D"454"><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none">=E2=80=8B<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></di= v><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" cla= ss=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D""= >On 20 October 2014 11:49, William Dymock-Johnson <span style=3D"" class=3D= "" dir=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect"= ymailto=3D"mailto:dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.com">dymockjohnsonwilliam@gmail.= com</a>></span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><blockquo= te class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;borde= r-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><d= iv style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr">I feel there are some more objections = to the proposed system which need to be considered and discussed.<div style= =3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">1. It could take the roleplaying element entirely out of c= ombat. This is true of most 'crunchy' or rules heavy systems. It means that= play will focus on consulting tables and charts rather than coming up with= a dramatic description of events. A direct attack system also allows the p= layer to describe their action off the bat from one roll and doesn't have t= o wait for another player to make their counter roll.</div><div style=3D"" = class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">2. It does take= longer. DQ combats are already ponderous glacial affairs in which one has = considered notifying next of kin in case the sudden onset of old age takes = it's toll. This will take even longer as there are more dice to roll and co= nsult and more tables to check.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">3. Since t= here are more tables to consult players are not looking at one another or t= he GM which diminishes the roleplaying aspect.</div><div style=3D"" class= =3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class= =3D"">4. Criticals can be negated. While this may sound good at first it me= ans you end up seeing less of them which isn't as dramatic. When playtestin= g I noticed results hover about the 1-2 mark with the EN hits replacing the= crits in frequency.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">5. Because you can now always hit your enemy players will choos= e 'agressive negotiations' even more than they do now. Violence may be the = best and seen as the only option. There will be less emphasis on searching = out the 'third option'.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">giving less</div><d= iv style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><di= v style=3D"" class=3D"">6. There are too many charts and tables to consult = which could lead to increased run time load giving less time for creativity= .. Players, especially GMs only have so much RAM.</div><div style=3D"" class= =3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class= =3D"">7. DQ is already a very numbers heavy game and that has driven off so= me potential players as well as encouraging various types of bean counting = munckinism. More crunch and rules will exacerbate this.</div><div style=3D"= " class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D""= class=3D"">The intent of the rules is good. It is an attempt to address the absurdly large numbers that now fly = about. However I feel this is a case of treating the symptoms and not the a= ctual disease which may well end up killing the patient.</div><div style=3D= "" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"= " class=3D"">William DJ</div></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D= "" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D= "none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Kelsie M= cArthur <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class=3D"= " rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com" ta= rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:kelsiemca@gmail.com">kelsiemca@gmail.com</a>= ></span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><blockquote clas= s=3D"" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-= color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div styl= e=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);"= >I have made some minor edits to the document today. Nothing significant.<s= pan style=3D"" class=3D""><font style=3D"" class=3D"" color=3D"#888888"><br= style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"no= ne"></font></span></div><span style=3D"" class=3D""><font style=3D"" class= =3D"" color=3D"#888888"></font></span><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:= tahoma, sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(0,0,0);">Kelsie<br style=3D"" = class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div style= =3D"" class=3D""><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">On 12 October 2014 19:17, Jonathan Bea= n <span style=3D"" class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel= =3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target= =3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a>></= span> wrote:<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:= rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div style=3D""= class=3D"" dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"" style=3D"text-align:center;"><b sty= le=3D"" class=3D"">Special DQ Gods meeting </b></div><div class=3D"" s= tyle=3D"text-align:center;">Sunday the 9th of November </div><div clas= s=3D"" style=3D"text-align:center;">1:00 pm onwards</div><div style=3D"" cl= ass=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"text-align:center;">39 Sackville Street, = Grey Lynn Auckland.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D= "" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Greetings all,<br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">I email th= is to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ Gods meeting = I am calling on <b style=3D"" class=3D"">Sunday the 9th of November 20= 14, 1:00 pm 39 Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.</b><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br = style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Pleas= e find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed Rolling Com= bat system. I wish to table this for a vote.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D"= "><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""= >I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need m= ore time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time wil= l be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.</div><div style=3D"" clas= s=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class= =3D"">I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list re= garding the attached document.</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D= "" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Here is my un= derstanding of the process involving rule changes of any scale and size in = DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending vote. </div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><ol style=3D"" class= =3D""><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">Table the item (proposal) = with a month notice of a meeting. <b style=3D"" class=3D""><i style=3D= "" class=3D"">(That is this email)</i></b><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></li><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">Talk about it in = a civilised way leading to fun and interesting discussions.<br style=3D"" c= lass=3D"" clear=3D"none"></li><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">Ha= ve the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br style=3D"" = class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></li><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">D= iscuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. <br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></li><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">If we have a Quor= um (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and 2:30 pm.<br style=3D"" = class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></li></ol></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">If pas= sed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew) with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in th= e Rulebook.</div></div><ul style=3D"" class=3D""><li class=3D"" style=3D"ma= rgin-left:15px;">Once written (some time later) these core rules will go in= to the Rules if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. = If the GMs feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed = Rolling Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and w= orked on again until they match.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></= li><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">Some time later, once they ha= ve been reviewed then they simply be tabled at a Gods meeting. <br sty= le=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></li></ul><div style=3D"" class=3D"">At t= he same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will continue wo= rking on the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang off the Pro= posal.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><ul style=3D"" class= =3D""><li class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">These items are things like (in no particular = order): Adam Tenant :-), Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Ripo= ste, Close combat rules, Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonu= s, Magic Resistance etc etc<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></li><l= i class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:15px;">I expect that these countless supp= orting elements will be play tested in relationship with the above core rul= es (if voted in) and then voted on in the normal way.<br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"></li></ul><div style=3D"" class=3D""><div class=3D"" s= tyle=3D"font-family:arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;">Stephen Martin has p= ointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this substantial change to a gen= eral vote of the players at a Guild meeting. I will ask Stephen to talk to = this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.<br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none"></div><div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:arial, sans-serif;font= -size:13px;"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div><div style=3D"" class=3D""> <br= style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Kind= regards,</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear= =3D"none">Jonathan Bean<div style=3D"" class=3D"">39 Sackville St, Grey Lyn= n</div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">P: <a href=3D"" style=3D"" class=3D"" rel= =3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 9 378 6635</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" cl= ear=3D"none">M: <a href=3D"" style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape= =3D"rect">+64 21 917 173</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">G:&nbs= p;<a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailt= o:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">= jonobean@gmail.com</a></div></div>=0A</div>=0A</blockquote></div><br style= =3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>=0A</div></div></blockquote></div><br= style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>=0A</div></div></blockquote></d= iv><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div>=0A</bl= ockquote></div><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>=0A</div></di= v></blockquote></div><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"= " class=3D"" clear=3D"all"><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>-- <br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div= style=3D"" class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div style=3D"" class=3D""><br st= yle=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">Jonathan Bean<div style=3D"" class=3D"">= 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn</div><div style=3D"" class=3D"">P: <a href=3D"" = style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 9 378 6635</a><br= style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">M: <a href=3D"" style=3D"" class=3D""= rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 21 917 173</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"= " clear=3D"none">G: <a style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D= "rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mail= to:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a></div></div>=0A</div></div>=0A= </blockquote></div>=0A</div></div></blockquote></div><br style=3D"" class= =3D"" clear=3D"none"><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"all"><div style=3D"= " class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div>-- <br style=3D= "" class=3D"" clear=3D"none"><div style=3D"" class=3D"">Kind regards,</div>= <div style=3D"" class=3D""><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">Jonatha= n Bean<div style=3D"" class=3D"">39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn</div><div style= =3D"" class=3D"">P: <a href=3D"" style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" sha= pe=3D"rect">+64 9 378 6635</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">M: <= a href=3D"" style=3D"" class=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 21 91= 7 173</a><br style=3D"" class=3D"" clear=3D"none">G: <a style=3D"" cla= ss=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.co= m" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com<= /a></div></div>=0A</div>=0A</div></div></blockquote></div><br style=3D"" cl= ass=3D"" clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br style=3D"" class=3D""><= br style=3D"" class=3D""></div> </div> </div> </blockquote><div></div> </= div></body></html> ---588606924-1578039282-1413949527=:12872 Content-Type: image/png; name="OppRollChange.png" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Id: <1.596913027@web126105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Content-Disposition: inline; filename="OppRollChange.png" iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAcYAAAHuCAYAAAAFnaxyAAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAACXBI WXMAAAsTAAALEwEAmpwYAAAAB3RJTUUH3goGBCwEsm6X6QAAIABJREFUeNrsvV9oI1l69//VZBgC O7sDe5WkIe7fjuQxxvDDLOxFCTxkegcj9fsuXgh2DLvdQ5Mt0fODSDdOdh2H3iaOd/L6Rlp4Z1Dt 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Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Julia McSpadden
Date	Wed, 22 Oct 2014 22:04:02 +1300
--001a113f9bfaaad12b0505ff3a17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I have been playing my warrior for 18 years, and am unhappy about the proposed changes. And I note that the changes don't effect Isileth but do effect Mebh. --001a113f9bfaaad12b0505ff3a17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 <p dir="ltr">I have been playing my warrior for 18 years, and am unhappy about the proposed changes.</p> <p dir="ltr">And I note that the changes don't effect Isileth but do effect Mebh.</p> --001a113f9bfaaad12b0505ff3a17-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --