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It seems I have been removed from this discussion list, going by a
conversation I had at DQ this evening.
Only to be expected, really. It's such a poor offering, it's hard to see
anyone promoting it in the clear light of day where it may be shot to
pieces like the crap that it is.

On 10 November 2014 10:39, Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> wrote:

> Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance
> for old system was
> calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all
> SG/EN cells where
> the SC - Def > 99 were too low.
> Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.
>
> For those that weren't there and haven't heard.
> The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but
> not into Probation.
>
> This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this
> version and provide
> feedback on this version.
> If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.
>
> This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed
> forward or dumped.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:
> > I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing
> for or against them.
> > Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are
> either accepted or
> > addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this
> proposal.
> > Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped
> them in with one of the
> > issues below.
> >
> >
> > Game Balance
> > * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased.
> > * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High
> SC vs Low defence will
> > now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit
> 10-30% of the time
> > rather than 1%.
> > * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit
> significantly more
> > often making this a less viable character choice.
> > * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over
> 100).
> > * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence
> as well as offence.
> > * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are
> known and worked around,
> > any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance
> until they are found
> > and fixed or worked around.
> > * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the
> current system, many
> > will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system.
> >   E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1.
> >
> > Speed of Combat
> > * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very
> subjective and polarising
> > issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:
> > - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes
> familiar and adjusts.
> > - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage
> can be resolved
> > requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower
> than the asynchronous
> > resolution that can be applied to current DQ.
> > - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The
> resolution of the new
> > system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but
> some people will
> > always need the charts and tables.
> > - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably
> have a greater impact
> > on run time than the rules themselves.
> >
> > Drama/Enjoyment
> > * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.
> > * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average
> number of critical
> > results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of
> having your critical
> > success negated.
> > * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may
> encourage simply hitting
> > more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.
> > * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e.
> being lucky with low
> > dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).
> >
> >
> > I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was out)
> impact analysis
> > comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the
> Current and New numbers as
> > well as the difference between them.
> > Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).
> > NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but
> included because I found it
> > easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and
> ripostes.
> > NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping
> below 1% which means a
> > roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules.
> If as some people play
> > the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current
> riposte chance is
> > capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more extreme.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Stephen.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:
> >> *Special DQ Gods meeting *
> >> Sunday the 9th of November
> >> 1:00 pm onwards
> >> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.
> >>
> >> Greetings all,
> >>
> >> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ
> >> Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm
> 39
> >> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*
> >>
> >> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed
> >> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.
> >>
> >> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need
> >> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time
> >> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.
> >>
> >> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list
> >> regarding the attached document.
> >>
> >> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any
> scale
> >> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending
> vote.
> >>
> >>    1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting.
> *(That is
> >>    this email)*
> >>    2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting
> >>    discussions.
> >>    3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.
> >>    4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.
> >>    5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm
> and
> >>    2:30 pm.
> >>
> >> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or
> Andrew)
> >> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the
> >> Rulebook.
> >>
> >>    - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the
> Rules
> >>    if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the
> GMs
> >>    feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed
> Rolling
> >>    Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and
> worked on
> >>    again until they match.
> >>    - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be
> >>    tabled at a Gods meeting.
> >>
> >> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will
> >> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which
> hang
> >> off the Proposal.
> >>
> >>    - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant
> :-),
> >>    Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat
> rules,
> >>    Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic
> Resistance etc
> >>    etc
> >>    - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play
> tested
> >>    in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then
> voted on
> >>    in the normal way.
> >>
> >> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this
> >> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting.
> I
> >> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Jonathan Bean
> >> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn
> >> P: +64 9 378 6635
> >> M: +64 21 917 173
> >> G: jonobean@gmail.com
> >>
> >
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,=
serif">It seems I have been removed from this discussion list, going by a c=
onversation I had at DQ this evening.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" sty=
le=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Only to be expected, really. It&#39;s such=
 a poor offering, it&#39;s hard to see anyone promoting it in the clear lig=
ht of day where it may be shot to pieces like the crap that it is.</div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 10 November=
 2014 10:39, Stephen Martin <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:stephen=
m@aklnz.net" target=3D"_blank">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for =
picking it up), EN &amp; SG chance for old system was<br>
calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all =
SG/EN cells where<br>
the SC - Def &gt; 99 were too low.<br>
Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.<br>
<br>
For those that weren&#39;t there and haven&#39;t heard.<br>
The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but no=
t into Probation.<br>
<br>
This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this vers=
ion and provide<br>
feedback on this version.<br>
If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.<br=
>
<br>
This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed for=
ward or dumped.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Cheers, Stephen.<br>
<br>
On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:<br>
&gt; I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing =
for or against them.<br>
&gt; Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are eit=
her accepted or<br>
&gt; addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this p=
roposal.<br>
&gt; Apologies if I have missed anyone&#39;s raised issues or mistakenly lu=
mped them in with one of the<br>
&gt; issues below.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Game Balance<br>
&gt; * Statistically, the number of EN &amp; SG results are increased.<br>
&gt; * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. Hig=
h SC vs Low defence will<br>
&gt; now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hi=
t 10-30% of the time<br>
&gt; rather than 1%.<br>
&gt; * &#39;Agility Fighters&#39; (sacrificing armour for high defence) wil=
l get hit significantly more<br>
&gt; often making this a less viable character choice.<br>
&gt; * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over =
100).<br>
&gt; * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defenc=
e as well as offence.<br>
&gt; * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are kn=
own and worked around,<br>
&gt; any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balanc=
e until they are found<br>
&gt; and fixed or worked around.<br>
&gt; * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the =
current system, many<br>
&gt; will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system.<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0E.g. Rune Armour 25% &amp; 5 vs Earth Armour 42% &amp; 1.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Speed of Combat<br>
&gt; * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subje=
ctive and polarising<br>
&gt; issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:<br>
&gt; - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone become=
s familiar and adjusts.<br>
&gt; - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage=
 can be resolved<br>
&gt; requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slow=
er than the asynchronous<br>
&gt; resolution that can be applied to current DQ.<br>
&gt; - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. T=
he resolution of the new<br>
&gt; system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) b=
ut some people will<br>
&gt; always need the charts and tables.<br>
&gt; - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probabl=
y have a greater impact<br>
&gt; on run time than the rules themselves.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Drama/Enjoyment<br>
&gt; * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the &#39;face time&#39; of RP=
Gs.<br>
&gt; * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the avera=
ge number of critical<br>
&gt; results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of h=
aving your critical<br>
&gt; success negated.<br>
&gt; * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may enc=
ourage simply hitting<br>
&gt; more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.<=
br>
&gt; * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e=
. being lucky with low<br>
&gt; dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was ou=
t) impact analysis<br>
&gt; comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the Curr=
ent and New numbers as<br>
&gt; well as the difference between them.<br>
&gt; Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).<br>
&gt; NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but inclu=
ded because I found it<br>
&gt; easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and=
 ripostes.<br>
&gt; NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping=
 below 1% which means a<br>
&gt; roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules.=
 If as some people play<br>
&gt; the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the curre=
nt riposte chance is<br>
&gt; capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence &gt; SC is even more ex=
treme.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers, Stephen.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; *Special DQ Gods meeting *<br>
&gt;&gt; Sunday the 9th of November<br>
&gt;&gt; 1:00 pm onwards<br>
&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Greetings all,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the speci=
al DQ<br>
&gt;&gt; Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:0=
0 pm 39<br>
&gt;&gt; Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Oppos=
ed<br>
&gt;&gt; Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that w=
e need<br>
&gt;&gt; more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. Thi=
s time<br>
&gt;&gt; will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list=
<br>
&gt;&gt; regarding the attached document.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of =
any scale<br>
&gt;&gt; and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pend=
ing vote.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a=
 meeting. *(That is<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this email)*<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun an=
d interesting<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussions.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting=
 at 1:00 pm.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote b=
etween 2:00 pm and<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2:30 pm.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or=
 Andrew)<br>
&gt;&gt; with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in th=
e<br>
&gt;&gt; Rulebook.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Once written (some time later) these core rules wil=
l go into the Rules<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and a=
ccepted. If the GMs<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 feel the &#39;fleshed out Rules&#39; do not match the=
 voted on &#39;Opposed Rolling<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Combat system&#39;, then they may ask for an area to =
be clarified and worked on<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 again until they match.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then =
they simply be<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tabled at a Gods meeting.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players wil=
l<br>
&gt;&gt; continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules wh=
ich hang<br>
&gt;&gt; off the Proposal.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These items are things like (in no particular order=
): Adam Tenant :-),<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte=
, Close combat rules,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, =
Magic Resistance etc<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 etc<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I expect that these countless supporting elements w=
ill be play tested<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in relationship with the above core rules (if voted i=
n) and then voted on<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the normal way.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct thi=
s<br>
&gt;&gt; substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild mee=
ting. I<br>
&gt;&gt; will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the =
9th.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Kind regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Jonathan Bean<br>
&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn<br>
&gt;&gt; P: +64 9 378 6635<br>
&gt;&gt; M: +64 21 917 173<br>
&gt;&gt; G: <a href=3D"mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Hi All

I am feeling a little fatigued after the meeting last weekend and
considering leaving the campaign meeting until after the guild meeting.

What do you think?

Do folks want to get together and discuss plot or are others like me just a
bit tired

Jules

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All<div><br></div><div>I am feeling a little fatigued a=
fter the meeting last weekend and considering leaving the campaign meeting =
until after the guild meeting.</div><div><br></div><div>What do you think? =
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Do folks want to get together and discuss p=
lot or are others like me just a bit tired</div><div><br></div><div>Jules</=
div></div>

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Hi All,
 
I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 100, whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed rolling. Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take on the subject.
 
If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the following:
+1.0 to Tier 1
+0.4 to Tier 2
+0.2 to Tier 3
+0.1 to Tier 4
 
I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum of its component increases.
 
Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows:
+0 to Tier 1
+0.4 to Tier 2
+0.2 to Tier 3
+0.1 to Tier 4
 
So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative value
 
The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes:
+0 to Tier 1
+0 to Tier 2
+0.2 to Tier 3
+0.1 to Tier 4
 
Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a total value of 0.4. 
 
Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point halves over 99 and halves again over 247
 
Cheers,
 
Dean
 
 From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net>
To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz 
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
  

Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance for old system was
calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where
the SC - Def > 99 were too low.
Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.

For those that weren't there and haven't heard.
The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Probation.

This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this version and provide
feedback on this version.
If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.

This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed forward or dumped.

Cheers, Stephen.

On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:
> I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing for or against them.
> Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are either accepted or
> addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this proposal.
> Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped them in with one of the
> issues below.
>
>
> Game Balance
> * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased.
> * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will
> now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of the time
> rather than 1%.
> * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit significantly more
> often making this a less viable character choice.
> * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).
> * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.
> * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are known and worked around,
> any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance until they are found
> and fixed or worked around.
> * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the current system, many
> will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system.
>   E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1.
>
> Speed of Combat
> * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and polarising
> issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:
> - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes familiar and adjusts.
> - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage can be resolved
> requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower than the asynchronous
> resolution that can be applied to current DQ.
> - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The resolution of the new
> system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but some people will
> always need the charts and tables.
> - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably have a greater impact
> on run time than the rules themselves.
>
> Drama/Enjoyment
> * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.
> * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average number of critical
> results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of having your critical
> success negated.
> * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting
> more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.
> * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e. being lucky with low
> dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).
>
>
> I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was out) impact analysis
> comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the Current and New numbers as
> well as the difference between them.
> Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).
> NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but included because I found it
> easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and ripostes.
> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping below 1% which means a
> roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play
> the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current riposte chance is
> capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more extreme.
>
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
>
>
> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:
>> *Special DQ Gods meeting *
>> Sunday the 9th of November
>> 1:00 pm onwards
>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.
>>
>> Greetings all,
>>
>> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ
>> Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39
>> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*
>>
>> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed
>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.
>>
>> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need
>> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time
>> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.
>>
>> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list
>> regarding the attached document.
>>
>> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any scale
>> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending vote.
>>
>>    1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. *(That is
>>    this email)*
>>    2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting
>>    discussions.
>>    3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.
>>    4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.
>>    5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and
>>    2:30 pm.
>>
>> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)
>> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the
>> Rulebook.
>>
>>    - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the Rules
>>    if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs
>>    feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed Rolling
>>    Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on
>>    again until they match.
>>    - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be
>>    tabled at a Gods meeting.
>>
>> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will
>> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang
>> off the Proposal.
>>
>>    - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant :-),
>>    Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,
>>    Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resistance etc
>>    etc
>>    - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play tested
>>    in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then voted on
>>    in the normal way.
>>
>> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this
>> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting. I
>> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Jonathan Bean
>> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn
>> P: +64 9 378 6635
>> M: +64 21 917 173
>> G: jonobean@gmail.com
>>
>
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<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px"><div>Hi All,</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I feel there is some confusion as to the&nbsp;concept that numbers over 100, whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed rolling.&nbsp;Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take on the subject.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the following:</div><div>+1.0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum of its component increases.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier
 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative value</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a
 total value of 0.4. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point halves&nbsp;over 99 and halves again&nbsp;over 247</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Dean<br></div>  <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir="ltr"> <div style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" contentEditable="false" readonly="true"></div>  <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Stephen Martin &lt;stephenm@aklnz.net&gt;<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39
 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br> </font> </div> <div><br>Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN &amp; SG chance for old system was<br>calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where<br>the SC - Def &gt; 99 were too low.<br>Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.<br><br>For those that weren't there and haven't heard.<br>The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Probation.<br><br>This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this version and provide<br>feedback on this version.<br>If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.<br><br>This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed forward or dumped.<br><br>Cheers, Stephen.<br><br>On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm,
 Stephen Martin wrote:<br>&gt; I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing for or against them.<br>&gt; Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are either accepted or<br>&gt; addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this proposal.<br>&gt; Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped them in with one of the<br>&gt; issues below.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Game Balance<br>&gt; * Statistically, the number of EN &amp; SG results are increased.<br>&gt; * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will<br>&gt; now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of the time<br>&gt; rather than 1%.<br>&gt; * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit significantly more<br>&gt; often making this a less viable character choice.<br>&gt; * Damage/Armour increases in relative
 value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).<br>&gt; * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.<br>&gt; * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are known and worked around,<br>&gt; any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance until they are found<br>&gt; and fixed or worked around.<br>&gt; * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the current system, many<br>&gt; will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system.<br>&gt;&nbsp;  E.g. Rune Armour 25% &amp; 5 vs Earth Armour 42% &amp; 1.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Speed of Combat<br>&gt; * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and polarising<br>&gt; issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:<br>&gt; - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes familiar and adjusts.<br>&gt; - Waiting on the resolution of the
 defence before the potential damage can be resolved<br>&gt; requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower than the asynchronous<br>&gt; resolution that can be applied to current DQ.<br>&gt; - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The resolution of the new<br>&gt; system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but some people will<br>&gt; always need the charts and tables.<br>&gt; - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably have a greater impact<br>&gt; on run time than the rules themselves.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Drama/Enjoyment<br>&gt; * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.<br>&gt; * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average number of critical<br>&gt; results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of having your critical<br>&gt; success negated.<br>&gt; * Thump Fest. - because
 there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting<br>&gt; more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.<br>&gt; * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e. being lucky with low<br>&gt; dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was out) impact analysis<br>&gt; comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the Current and New numbers as<br>&gt; well as the difference between them.<br>&gt; Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).<br>&gt; NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but included because I found it<br>&gt; easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and ripostes.<br>&gt; NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping below 1% which means a<br>&gt; roll of 30 or less will never
 be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play<br>&gt; the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current riposte chance is<br>&gt; capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence &gt; SC is even more extreme.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; *Special DQ Gods meeting *<br>&gt;&gt; Sunday the 9th of November<br>&gt;&gt; 1:00 pm onwards<br>&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Greetings all,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ<br>&gt;&gt; Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39<br>&gt;&gt; Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed<br>&gt;&gt; Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a
 vote.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need<br>&gt;&gt; more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time<br>&gt;&gt; will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list<br>&gt;&gt; regarding the attached document.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any scale<br>&gt;&gt; and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending vote.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. *(That is<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; this email)*<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; discussions.<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;
 &nbsp; 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; 2:30 pm.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)<br>&gt;&gt; with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the<br>&gt;&gt; Rulebook.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the Rules<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed Rolling<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; again until they match.<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; tabled at a
 Gods meeting.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will<br>&gt;&gt; continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang<br>&gt;&gt; off the Proposal.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant :-),<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resistance etc<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; etc<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play tested<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then voted on<br>&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &nbsp; in the normal way.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this<br>&gt;&gt; substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild
 meeting. I<br>&gt;&gt; will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Kind regards,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Jonathan Bean<br>&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn<br>&gt;&gt; P: +64 9 378 6635<br>&gt;&gt; M: +64 21 917 173<br>&gt;&gt; G: <a href="mailto:jonobean@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:jonobean@gmail.com">jonobean@gmail.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></body></html>
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There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the system is to allow
low level characters to be able to hit extreme level characters.

You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effect of this is to
break defensive fighters.

Cheers Jules
On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <deangellis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 100,
> whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed
> rolling. Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis
> on the fact that it is my take on the subject.
>
> If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the
> following:
> +1.0 to Tier 1
> +0.4 to Tier 2
> +0.2 to Tier 3
> +0.1 to Tier 4
>
> I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum
> of its component increases.
>
> Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows:
> +0 to Tier 1
> +0.4 to Tier 2
> +0.2 to Tier 3
> +0.1 to Tier 4
>
> So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some
> value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here
> is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers,
> just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal
> value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative
> value
>
> The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it
> does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes:
> +0 to Tier 1
> +0 to Tier 2
> +0.2 to Tier 3
> +0.1 to Tier 4
>
> Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account
> the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5
> numbers, so its true value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both
> 0.05 for a total value of 0.4.
>
> Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point
> halves over 99 and halves again over 247
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dean
>    *From:* Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net>
> *To:* dq@dq.sf.org.nz
> *Sent:* Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed
> Rolling Combat system
>
> Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance
> for old system was
> calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all
> SG/EN cells where
> the SC - Def > 99 were too low.
> Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.
>
> For those that weren't there and haven't heard.
> The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but
> not into Probation.
>
> This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this
> version and provide
> feedback on this version.
> If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.
>
> This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed
> forward or dumped.
>
> Cheers, Stephen.
>
> On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:
> > I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing
> for or against them.
> > Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are
> either accepted or
> > addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this
> proposal.
> > Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped
> them in with one of the
> > issues below.
> >
> >
> > Game Balance
> > * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased.
> > * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High
> SC vs Low defence will
> > now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit
> 10-30% of the time
> > rather than 1%.
> > * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit
> significantly more
> > often making this a less viable character choice.
> > * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over
> 100).
> > * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence
> as well as offence.
> > * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are
> known and worked around,
> > any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance
> until they are found
> > and fixed or worked around.
> > * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the
> current system, many
> > will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system.
> >  E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1.
> >
> > Speed of Combat
> > * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very
> subjective and polarising
> > issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:
> > - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes
> familiar and adjusts.
> > - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage
> can be resolved
> > requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower
> than the asynchronous
> > resolution that can be applied to current DQ.
> > - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The
> resolution of the new
> > system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but
> some people will
> > always need the charts and tables.
> > - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably
> have a greater impact
> > on run time than the rules themselves.
> >
> > Drama/Enjoyment
> > * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.
> > * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average
> number of critical
> > results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of
> having your critical
> > success negated.
> > * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may
> encourage simply hitting
> > more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.
> > * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e.
> being lucky with low
> > dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).
> >
> >
> > I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was out)
> impact analysis
> > comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the
> Current and New numbers as
> > well as the difference between them.
> > Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).
> > NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but
> included because I found it
> > easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and
> ripostes.
> > NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping
> below 1% which means a
> > roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules.
> If as some people play
> > the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current
> riposte chance is
> > capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more extreme.
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Stephen.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:
> >> *Special DQ Gods meeting *
> >> Sunday the 9th of November
> >> 1:00 pm onwards
> >> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.
> >>
> >> Greetings all,
> >>
> >> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ
> >> Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm
> 39
> >> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*
> >>
> >> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed
> >> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.
> >>
> >> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need
> >> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time
> >> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on.
> >>
> >> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list
> >> regarding the attached document.
> >>
> >> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any
> scale
> >> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending
> vote.
> >>
> >>    1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting.
> *(That is
> >>    this email)*
> >>    2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting
> >>    discussions.
> >>    3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.
> >>    4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.
> >>    5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm
> and
> >>    2:30 pm.
> >>
> >> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or
> Andrew)
> >> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the
> >> Rulebook.
> >>
> >>    - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the
> Rules
> >>    if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the
> GMs
> >>    feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed
> Rolling
> >>    Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and
> worked on
> >>    again until they match.
> >>    - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be
> >>    tabled at a Gods meeting.
> >>
> >> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will
> >> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which
> hang
> >> off the Proposal.
> >>
> >>    - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant
> :-),
> >>    Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat
> rules,
> >>    Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic
> Resistance etc
> >>    etc
> >>    - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play
> tested
> >>    in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then
> voted on
> >>    in the normal way.
> >>
> >> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this
> >> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting.
> I
> >> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.
> >>
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >>
> >> Jonathan Bean
> >> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn
> >> P: +64 9 378 6635
> >> M: +64 21 917 173
> >> G: jonobean@gmail.com
> >>
> >
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the sys=
tem is to allow low level characters to be able to hit extreme level charac=
ters.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effec=
t of this is to break defensive fighters.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Cheers Jules</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, &quot;Dean Ellis&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:deangellis@yahoo.com">deangellis@yahoo.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D=
"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,=
Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px"><div>Hi All,</div>=
<div>=C2=A0</div><div>I feel there is some confusion as to the=C2=A0concept=
 that numbers over 100, whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningf=
ul under opposed rolling.=C2=A0Here is my analysis on the subject, plus com=
ments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take on the subject.</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><div>If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to =
this we get the following:</div><div>+1.0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier =
2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
div>I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the su=
m of its component increases.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Once we hit the fi=
rst breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows:</div><div>+0 to Tie=
r 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier
 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<div>So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though s=
ome value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem h=
ere is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbe=
rs, just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nomi=
nal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative=
 value</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While =
for most this is a stretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis=
 becomes:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to T=
ier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Giving an initial=
 analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tie=
r 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true=
 value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a
 total value of 0.4. </div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Using this analysis as a g=
uide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point halves=C2=A0over 99 and ha=
lves again=C2=A0over 247</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><div>Dean<br></div>  <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helve=
tica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px"> <div st=
yle=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Gran=
de,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"margin:5px 0=
px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);min-height:0px;line-height=
:0;font-size:0px" readonly></div>  <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Stephen Martin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ste=
phenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>&gt;<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weig=
ht:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz<=
/a> <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, Novem=
ber 10, 2014 10:39
 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Sp=
ecial DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br> </fo=
nt> </div> <div><br>Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it =
up), EN &amp; SG chance for old system was<br>calculated off the capped SC =
(max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where<br>the SC -=
 Def &gt; 99 were too low.<br>Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.<br=
><br>For those that weren&#39;t there and haven&#39;t heard.<br>The vote wa=
s passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Prob=
ation.<br><br>This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to=
 use this version and provide<br>feedback on this version.<br>If not play t=
esting this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.<br><br>This Pla=
y Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed forward or =
dumped.<br><br>Cheers, Stephen.<br><br>On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm,
 Stephen Martin wrote:<br>&gt; I have tried to summarise and group the rais=
ed issues without arguing for or against them.<br>&gt; Hopefully this can b=
e considered a list of issues/impacts that are either accepted or<br>&gt; a=
ddressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this proposa=
l.<br>&gt; Apologies if I have missed anyone&#39;s raised issues or mistake=
nly lumped them in with one of the<br>&gt; issues below.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt; Game Balance<br>&gt; * Statistically, the number of EN &amp; SG resul=
ts are increased.<br>&gt; * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become=
 less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will<br>&gt; now miss 10-20% of th=
e time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of the time<br>&g=
t; rather than 1%.<br>&gt; * &#39;Agility Fighters&#39; (sacrificing armour=
 for high defence) will get hit significantly more<br>&gt; often making thi=
s a less viable character choice.<br>&gt; * Damage/Armour increases in rela=
tive
 value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).<br>&gt; * Dice Roll modifiers increa=
se in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.<br>&gt; * U=
nknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are known and =
worked around,<br>&gt; any new system will have flaws which could unexpecte=
dly disrupt balance until they are found<br>&gt; and fixed or worked around=
.<br>&gt; * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with=
 the current system, many<br>&gt; will need to be changed to achieve equiva=
lency under the new system.<br>&gt;=C2=A0  E.g. Rune Armour 25% &amp; 5 vs =
Earth Armour 42% &amp; 1.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Speed of Combat<br>&gt; * Opinion=
 seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and pola=
rising<br>&gt; issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:<br>&gt=
; - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes f=
amiliar and adjusts.<br>&gt; - Waiting on the resolution of the
 defence before the potential damage can be resolved<br>&gt; requires a syn=
chronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower than the asynchr=
onous<br>&gt; resolution that can be applied to current DQ.<br>&gt; - Consu=
lting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The resolutio=
n of the new<br>&gt; system can be done mentally (the same is true of the c=
urrent system) but some people will<br>&gt; always need the charts and tabl=
es.<br>&gt; - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline =
probably have a greater impact<br>&gt; on run time than the rules themselve=
s.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Drama/Enjoyment<br>&gt; * Consulting charts/tables detra=
cts from the &#39;face time&#39; of RPGs.<br>&gt; * Critical success can be=
 negated. While analysis shows that the average number of critical<br>&gt; =
results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of having=
 your critical<br>&gt; success negated.<br>&gt; * Thump Fest. - because
 there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting<br>&gt=
; more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.<br>=
&gt; * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e=
. being lucky with low<br>&gt; dice rolls counts for more than being skille=
d).<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I have attached an expanded and corrected (chan=
ge to EN chances was out) impact analysis<br>&gt; comparing Current DQ with=
 the proposed change. Also including the Current and New numbers as<br>&gt;=
 well as the difference between them.<br>&gt; Attached as both image and pd=
f (the content of both is the same).<br>&gt; NB1 the last grid is Misses wh=
ich is just the invert of Hits but included because I found it<br>&gt; easi=
er to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and ripostes=
.<br>&gt; NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dro=
pping below 1% which means a<br>&gt; roll of 30 or less will never
 be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play<br>&gt; th=
e riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current ripo=
ste chance is<br>&gt; capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence &gt; S=
C is even more extreme.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Cheers, Stephen.<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote=
:<br>&gt;&gt; *Special DQ Gods meeting *<br>&gt;&gt; Sunday the 9th of Nove=
mber<br>&gt;&gt; 1:00 pm onwards<br>&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn=
 Auckland.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Greetings all,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I=
 email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ<br>&=
gt;&gt; Gods meeting I am calling on *Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00=
 pm 39<br>&gt;&gt; Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.*<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt; Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed<=
br>&gt;&gt; Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a
 vote.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I am calling this meeting for the 9th of Nov=
ember as I feel that we need<br>&gt;&gt; more time than the normal 15-20 mi=
ns before the Guild meeting. This time<br>&gt;&gt; will be used to discuss =
the proposal to be voted on.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; I encourage all open a=
nd respectful debate on the DQ emailing list<br>&gt;&gt; regarding the atta=
ched document.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Here is my understanding of the proc=
ess involving rule changes of any scale<br>&gt;&gt; and size in DQ. I have =
of course written it in regards to the pending vote.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meetin=
g. *(That is<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this email)*<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting<br>&gt;=
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussions.<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. Have the Gods me=
eting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0
 =C2=A0 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and<br=
>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2:30 pm.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; If passed by vote, =
then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)<br>&gt;&gt; with th=
e responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the<br>&gt;&gt; Ru=
lebook.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Once written (some time late=
r) these core rules will go into the Rules<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if the =
GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs<br>&gt;&g=
t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 feel the &#39;fleshed out Rules&#39; do not match the voted=
 on &#39;Opposed Rolling<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Combat system&#39;, then =
they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 again until they match.<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Some time later, =
once they have been reviewed then they simply be<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 t=
abled at a
 Gods meeting.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; At the same time as the above we as =
GMs and interested players will<br>&gt;&gt; continue working on the support=
ing elements of the combat rules which hang<br>&gt;&gt; off the Proposal.<b=
r>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These items are things like (in no pa=
rticular order): Adam Tenant :-),<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Defense, Special=
 attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resis=
tance etc<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 etc<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I expect =
that these countless supporting elements will be play tested<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then=
 voted on<br>&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the normal way.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t; Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this<br>&=
gt;&gt; substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild
 meeting. I<br>&gt;&gt; will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods =
meeting on the 9th.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Kind regards,<br>&g=
t;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Jonathan Bean<br>&gt;&gt; 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn<br>=
&gt;&gt; P: <a value=3D"+6493786635">+64 9 378 6635</a><br>&gt;&gt; M: <a v=
alue=3D"+6421917173">+64 21 917 173</a><br>&gt;&gt; G: <a>jonobean@gmail.co=
m</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;<br><br></div> </div> </div>  </div></div></blockq=
uote></div>

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