Messages for 13 November 2014

Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Jim Arona
Date	Thu, 13 Nov 2014 01:56:42 +1300
--f46d04428f56628e140507a8ed9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous system is not going to be accurate. We cannot conclude what each point of success chance is worth, because we cannot know what the result of the various quality results would be. Factors like an opponent's armour or base damage have significant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some general values, but an analysis that changes when the weights change does not tell us much. It is, at best, a guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably a kind one. We can conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of 100 is substantially less valuable than points below 101, however. In the face of a reducing return on investment with respect to success chance, players will choose to broaden their path of development. In general, a system that supports players when they specialise (and encourages them to stay specialised) is more interesting than one where they develop across a wide range of abilities. Especially if they are only doing it as a way of using up Experience effectively. Which would never happen in DQ, because, of course, DQ players advance their characters on the basis of the integrity of their role-playing and a mystic devotion to an ineffable ideal which is best described by the quote 'It's something I feel, here, deep inside'. Pauses may have to be inserted to indicate the profundity of the emotions expressed. Consider DQ as it currently stands. There are three game engines at work. The Skill game engine has relatively constant success chances, and the player generally knows their success chance before they attempt something. Sure, there are a few, for example finding / removing traps, curing poison etc, but by and large the chance does not substantially vary. Things that do not usually take place in a dramatic situations are relatively certain as opposed to those where suspense may be generated. The Magic game engine has similarly constant success chances, a player knows what their chance of Casting magic will be before they commit to it, although its effectiveness may largely be ignored or at least ameliorated by a successful Magic Resistance check. In addition, spell casting takes 2 Pulses. A player knows what their Cast Chance will be before they cast it, although they do not know what their targets MR is like. The Combat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which are seriously modified by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player cannot know until told by the DM whether or not they have hit, or if their Defense is sufficient to avoid a blow. On the other hand, it is possible to have 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse. So, according to the system: - Skill use is something that happens off stage and can be dealt with reasonably mechanically. - Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while Casting, but attracts uncertainty as to how it is applied. - Combat allows for more Actions, but sacrifices certainty on every side. A unified game engine destroys this distinction, the differences are lost and become blended into the same boring event. This is not an improvement. Hardly any player considers spell casting as exciting as melee unless they have a way of Casting every Pulse. That is, thankfully, an ability that is reasonably thin on the ground, and hopefully getting thinner every day. This impoverished system will make the game less interesting. While it can be exciting to steal a Possible Spec. Grievous from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have one stolen from a player. Finally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does not attract new players. No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting and say 'I've come to join up because I understand that you've come up with a new system and I want desperately to try it out'. This will never happen. What will likely happen, however, is that some people will leave DQ on the bones of these changes. Those people who may have been thinking about returning to DQ may abandon that plan. Whatever conclusion you come to with these infantile changes, I will never DM it. I am uninterested in playing in DQ under this system as well. On 12 November 2014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> wrote: > There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the system is to > allow low level characters to be able to hit extreme level characters. > > You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effect of this is > to break defensive fighters. > > Cheers Jules > On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <deangellis@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 100, >> whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed >> rolling. Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis >> on the fact that it is my take on the subject. >> >> If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the >> following: >> +1.0 to Tier 1 >> +0.4 to Tier 2 >> +0.2 to Tier 3 >> +0.1 to Tier 4 >> >> I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum >> of its component increases. >> >> Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows: >> +0 to Tier 1 >> +0.4 to Tier 2 >> +0.2 to Tier 3 >> +0.1 to Tier 4 >> >> So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some >> value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here >> is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, >> just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal >> value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative >> value >> >> The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it >> does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes: >> +0 to Tier 1 >> +0 to Tier 2 >> +0.2 to Tier 3 >> +0.1 to Tier 4 >> >> Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account >> the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 >> numbers, so its true value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both >> 0.05 for a total value of 0.4. >> >> Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 >> point halves over 99 and halves again over 247 >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dean >> From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> >> To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >> Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM >> Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed >> Rolling Combat system >> >> Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG >> chance for old system was >> calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so >> all SG/EN cells where >> the SC - Def > 99 were too low. >> Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached. >> >> For those that weren't there and haven't heard. >> The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but >> not into Probation. >> >> This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this >> version and provide >> feedback on this version. >> If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat. >> >> This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed >> forward or dumped. >> >> Cheers, Stephen. >> >> On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote: >> > I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing >> for or against them. >> > Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are >> either accepted or >> > addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this >> proposal. >> > Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped >> them in with one of the >> > issues below. >> > >> > >> > Game Balance >> > * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased. >> > * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High >> SC vs Low defence will >> > now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit >> 10-30% of the time >> > rather than 1%. >> > * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit >> significantly more >> > often making this a less viable character choice. >> > * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over >> 100). >> > * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence >> as well as offence. >> > * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are >> known and worked around, >> > any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance >> until they are found >> > and fixed or worked around. >> > * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the >> current system, many >> > will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system. >> > E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1. >> > >> > Speed of Combat >> > * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very >> subjective and polarising >> > issue. I think these cover most of the points raised: >> > - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes >> familiar and adjusts. >> > - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage >> can be resolved >> > requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually >> slower than the asynchronous >> > resolution that can be applied to current DQ. >> > - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. >> The resolution of the new >> > system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) >> but some people will >> > always need the charts and tables. >> > - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably >> have a greater impact >> > on run time than the rules themselves. >> > >> > Drama/Enjoyment >> > * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs. >> > * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the >> average number of critical >> > results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of >> having your critical >> > success negated. >> > * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may >> encourage simply hitting >> > more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions. >> > * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e. >> being lucky with low >> > dice rolls counts for more than being skilled). >> > >> > >> > I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was >> out) impact analysis >> > comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the >> Current and New numbers as >> > well as the difference between them. >> > Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same). >> > NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but >> included because I found it >> > easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and >> ripostes. >> > NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping >> below 1% which means a >> > roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules. >> If as some people play >> > the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the >> current riposte chance is >> > capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more >> extreme. >> > >> > >> > Cheers, Stephen. >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote: >> >> Special DQ Gods meeting >> >> Sunday the 9th of November >> >> 1:00 pm onwards >> >> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland. >> >> >> >> Greetings all, >> >> >> >> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ >> >> Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm >> 39 >> >> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland. >> >> >> >> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed >> >> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote. >> >> >> >> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we >> need >> >> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This >> time >> >> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on. >> >> >> >> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list >> >> regarding the attached document. >> >> >> >> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any >> scale >> >> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending >> vote. >> >> >> >> 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. >> (That is >> >> this email) >> >> 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting >> >> discussions. >> >> 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm. >> >> 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. >> >> 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm >> and >> >> 2:30 pm. >> >> >> >> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or >> Andrew) >> >> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the >> >> Rulebook. >> >> >> >> - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the >> Rules >> >> if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If >> the GMs >> >> feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed >> Rolling >> >> Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and >> worked on >> >> again until they match. >> >> - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be >> >> tabled at a Gods meeting. >> >> >> >> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will >> >> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which >> hang >> >> off the Proposal. >> >> >> >> - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant >> :-), >> >> Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat >> rules, >> >> Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic >> Resistance etc >> >> etc >> >> - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play >> tested >> >> in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then >> voted on >> >> in the normal way. >> >> >> >> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this >> >> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild >> meeting. I >> >> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th. >> >> >> >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> >> >> Jonathan Bean >> >> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn >> >> P: +64 9 378 6635 >> >> M: +64 21 917 173 >> >> G: jonobean@gmail.com >> >> >> > >> >> --f46d04428f56628e140507a8ed9d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,= serif">Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous = system is not going to be accurate.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style= =3D"font-family:georgia,serif">We cannot conclude what each point of succes= s chance is worth, because we cannot know what the result of the various qu= ality results would be. Factors like an opponent's armour or base damag= e have significant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some general values,= but an analysis that changes when the weights change does not tell us much= . It is, at best, a guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably= a kind one.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:g= eorgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:g= eorgia,serif">We can conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of = 100 is substantially less valuable than points below 101, however.</div><di= v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><di= v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">In the face o= f a reducing return on investment with respect to success chance, players w= ill choose to broaden their path of development. In general, a system that = supports players when they specialise (and encourages them to stay speciali= sed) is more interesting than one where they develop across a wide range of= abilities. Especially if they are only doing it as a way of using up Exper= ience effectively. Which would never happen in DQ, because, of course, DQ p= layers advance their characters on the basis of the integrity of their role= -playing and a mystic devotion to an ineffable ideal which is best describe= d by the quote 'It's something I feel, here, deep inside'. Paus= es may have to be inserted to indicate the profundity of the emotions expre= ssed.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"= ><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"= >Consider DQ as it currently stands. There are three game engines at work.= =C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif= ">The Skill game engine has relatively constant success chances, and the pl= ayer generally knows their success chance before they attempt something. Su= re, there are a few, for example finding / removing traps, curing poison et= c, but by and large the chance does not substantially vary. Things that do = not usually take place in a dramatic situations are relatively certain as o= pposed to those where suspense may be generated.</div><div class=3D"gmail_d= efault" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d= efault" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">The Magic game engine has simil= arly constant success chances, a player knows what their chance of Casting = magic will be before they commit to it, although its effectiveness may larg= ely be ignored or at least ameliorated by a successful Magic Resistance che= ck. In addition, spell casting takes 2 Pulses. A player knows what their Ca= st Chance will be before they cast it, although they do not know what their= targets MR is like.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-= family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-= family:georgia,serif">The Combat game engine allows for very dynamic succes= s chances, which are seriously modified by situation and an opponent's = abilities. A player cannot know until told by the DM whether or not they ha= ve hit, or if their Defense is sufficient to avoid a blow.=C2=A0 On the oth= er hand, it is possible to have 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse.</div><d= iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><d= iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">So, accordin= g to the system:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style><ul style><li styl= e=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Skill use is something that happens off sta= ge and can be dealt with reasonably mechanically.</li><li><span style=3D"fo= nt-family:georgia,serif">Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while C= asting, but attracts uncertainty as to how it is applied.</span></li><li><s= pan style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Combat allows for more Actions, but= sacrifices certainty on every side.</span><br></li></ul></div><div class= =3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class= =3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">A unified game engin= e destroys this distinction, the differences are lost and become blended in= to the same boring event.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"= font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"= font-family:georgia,serif">This is not an improvement. Hardly any player co= nsiders spell casting as exciting as melee unless they have a way of Castin= g every Pulse. That is, thankfully, an ability that is reasonably thin on t= he ground, and hopefully getting thinner every day. This impoverished syste= m will make the game less interesting. While it can be exciting to steal a = Possible Spec. Grievous from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have o= ne stolen from a player.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f= ont-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f= ont-family:georgia,serif">Finally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a= game system does not attract new players. No one is going to come along to= our Guild Meeting and say 'I've come to join up because I understa= nd that you've come up with a new system and I want desperately to try = it out'. This will never happen.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl= e=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl= e=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">What will likely happen, however, is that s= ome people will leave DQ on the bones of these changes. Those people who ma= y have been thinking about returning to DQ may abandon that plan.=C2=A0</di= v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></di= v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Whatever= conclusion you come to with these infantile changes, I will never DM it. I= am uninterested in playing in DQ under this system as well.<br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div = class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div></div= ><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 November 2= 014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:juliamcs= padden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">juliamcspadden@gmail.com</a>></span>= wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor= der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr">There is no confus= ion about the fact that the aim of the system is to allow low level charact= ers to be able to hit extreme level characters.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effec= t of this is to break defensive fighters.</p> <p dir=3D"ltr">Cheers Jules</p> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" &lt= ;<a href=3D"mailto:deangellis@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">deangellis@yahoo= .com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot= e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">= <div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNe= ue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px">= <div>Hi All,</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I feel there is some confusion as t= o the=C2=A0concept that numbers over 100, whether they be SC of Defence, be= come less meaningful under opposed rolling.=C2=A0Here is my analysis on the= subject, plus comments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take on th= e subject.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>If we start at 1 as a base then for e= ach one we add to this we get the following:</div><div>+1.0 to Tier 1</div>= <div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div>= <div>=C2=A0</div><div>I therefore have given each point a relative value of= 1.7, being the sum of its component increases.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>= Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows:</= div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div>= <div>So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though s= ome value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem h= ere is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbe= rs, just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nomi= nal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative= value</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While = for most this is a stretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis= becomes:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to T= ier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Giving an initial= analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tie= r 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true= value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a total value of 0.4. </div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Using this analysis as a g= uide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point halves=C2=A0over 99 and ha= lves again=C2=A0over 247</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>=C2= =A0</div><div>Dean<br></div> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helve= tica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px"> <div st= yle=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Gran= de,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"margin:5px 0= px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);min-height:0px;line-height= :0;font-size:0px" readonly></div> <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"= font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Stephen Martin <<a href=3D"mailto:ste= phenm@aklnz.net" target=3D"_blank">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>><br> <b><span = style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz= " target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a> <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:= bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq] Sp= ecial DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br> </fo= nt> </div> <div><br>Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it = up), EN & SG chance for old system was<br>calculated off the capped SC = (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where<br>the SC -= Def > 99 were too low.<br>Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached.<br= ><br>For those that weren't there and haven't heard.<br>The vote wa= s passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Prob= ation.<br><br>This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to= use this version and provide<br>feedback on this version.<br>If not play t= esting this then they should be playing standard DQ combat.<br><br>This Pla= y Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed forward or = dumped.<br><br>Cheers, Stephen.<br><br>On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:<br>> I have tried to summarise and group the rais= ed issues without arguing for or against them.<br>> Hopefully this can b= e considered a list of issues/impacts that are either accepted or<br>> a= ddressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this proposa= l.<br>> Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistake= nly lumped them in with one of the<br>> issues below.<br>><br>><br= >> Game Balance<br>> * Statistically, the number of EN & SG resul= ts are increased.<br>> * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become= less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will<br>> now miss 10-20% of th= e time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of the time<br>&g= t; rather than 1%.<br>> * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour= for high defence) will get hit significantly more<br>> often making thi= s a less viable character choice.<br>> * Damage/Armour increases in rela= tive value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).<br>> * Dice Roll modifiers increa= se in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.<br>> * U= nknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are known and = worked around,<br>> any new system will have flaws which could unexpecte= dly disrupt balance until they are found<br>> and fixed or worked around= .<br>> * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with= the current system, many<br>> will need to be changed to achieve equiva= lency under the new system.<br>>=C2=A0 E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs = Earth Armour 42% & 1.<br>><br>> Speed of Combat<br>> * Opinion= seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and pola= rising<br>> issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:<br>&gt= ; - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes f= amiliar and adjusts.<br>> - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage can be resolved<br>> requires a syn= chronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower than the asynchr= onous<br>> resolution that can be applied to current DQ.<br>> - Consu= lting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The resolutio= n of the new<br>> system can be done mentally (the same is true of the c= urrent system) but some people will<br>> always need the charts and tabl= es.<br>> - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline = probably have a greater impact<br>> on run time than the rules themselve= s.<br>><br>> Drama/Enjoyment<br>> * Consulting charts/tables detra= cts from the 'face time' of RPGs.<br>> * Critical success can be= negated. While analysis shows that the average number of critical<br>> = results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of having= your critical<br>> success negated.<br>> * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting<br>&gt= ; more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.<br>= > * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e= . being lucky with low<br>> dice rolls counts for more than being skille= d).<br>><br>><br>> I have attached an expanded and corrected (chan= ge to EN chances was out) impact analysis<br>> comparing Current DQ with= the proposed change. Also including the Current and New numbers as<br>>= well as the difference between them.<br>> Attached as both image and pd= f (the content of both is the same).<br>> NB1 the last grid is Misses wh= ich is just the invert of Hits but included because I found it<br>> easi= er to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and ripostes= .<br>> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dro= pping below 1% which means a<br>> roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play<br>> th= e riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current ripo= ste chance is<br>> capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > S= C is even more extreme.<br>><br>><br>> Cheers, Stephen.<br>><br= >><br>><br>> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote= :<br>>> Special DQ Gods meeting <br>>> Sunday the 9th of Nove= mber<br>>> 1:00 pm onwards<br>>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn= Auckland.<br>>><br>>> Greetings all,<br>>><br>>> I= email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ<br>&= gt;> Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00= pm 39<br>>> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland.<br>>><br>&gt= ;> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed<= br>>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.<br>>><br>>> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of Nov= ember as I feel that we need<br>>> more time than the normal 15-20 mi= ns before the Guild meeting. This time<br>>> will be used to discuss = the proposal to be voted on.<br>>><br>>> I encourage all open a= nd respectful debate on the DQ emailing list<br>>> regarding the atta= ched document.<br>>><br>>> Here is my understanding of the proc= ess involving rule changes of any scale<br>>> and size in DQ. I have = of course written it in regards to the pending vote.<br>>><br>>&gt= ;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meetin= g. (That is<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this email)<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting<br>>= >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 discussions.<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. Have the Gods me= eting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0= 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm and<br= >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2:30 pm.<br>>><br>>> If passed by vote, = then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)<br>>> with th= e responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the<br>>> Ru= lebook.<br>>><br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Once written (some time late= r) these core rules will go into the Rules<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if the = GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs<br>>&g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted= on 'Opposed Rolling<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Combat system', then = they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on<br>>>=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 again until they match.<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Some time later, = once they have been reviewed then they simply be<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 t= abled at a Gods meeting.<br>>><br>>> At the same time as the above we as = GMs and interested players will<br>>> continue working on the support= ing elements of the combat rules which hang<br>>> off the Proposal.<b= r>>><br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These items are things like (in no pa= rticular order): Adam Tenant :-),<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Defense, Special= attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,<br>>>=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resis= tance etc<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 etc<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I expect = that these countless supporting elements will be play tested<br>>>=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then= voted on<br>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the normal way.<br>>><br>>&g= t; Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this<br>&= gt;> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting. I<br>>> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods = meeting on the 9th.<br>>><br>>><br>>> Kind regards,<br>&g= t;><br>>> Jonathan Bean<br>>> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn<br>= >> P: <a value=3D"+6493786635">+64 9 378 6635</a><br>>> M: <a v= alue=3D"+6421917173">+64 21 917 173</a><br>>> G: <a>jonobean@gmail.co= m</a><br>>><br>><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></blockq= uote></div> </blockquote></div><br></div> --f46d04428f56628e140507a8ed9d-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Campaign Meeting
From	Julia McSpadden
Date	Thu, 13 Nov 2014 09:06:24 +1300
--001a1135f8442a84420507aeee78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Willie wants a meeting. - So I will find a time and send out an agenda shortly Peace All Jules On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi All > > I am feeling a little fatigued after the meeting last weekend and > considering leaving the campaign meeting until after the guild meeting. > > What do you think? > > Do folks want to get together and discuss plot or are others like me just > a bit tired > > Jules > --001a1135f8442a84420507aeee78 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Willie wants a meeting. - So I will find a time and send o= ut an agenda shortly<div><br></div><div>Peace All</div><div><br></div><div>= Jules</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">= On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 9:35 AM, Julia McSpadden <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a h= ref=3D"mailto:juliamcspadden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">juliamcspadden@gm= ail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D= "margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class= =3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi All<div><br></div><div>I = am feeling a little fatigued after the meeting last weekend and considering= leaving the campaign meeting until after the guild meeting.</div><div><br>= </div><div>What do you think? =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Do folks want= to get together and discuss plot or are others like me just a bit tired</d= iv><div><br></div><div>Jules</div></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> --001a1135f8442a84420507aeee78-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Ian Wood
Date	Wed, 12 Nov 2014 13:00:45 -0800
--1228296801-477432846-1415826045=:27172 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable having done this type of analysis professionally for a while now, i am conf= ident Dean, or I for that matter, can make useful interpretations of the da= ta to predict their impact on the game.=0A=0AYour conclusion below is flawe= d, however, chances above 100 are still valuable, indeed they are higly wei= ghted in a criticals based system.=0A=0A=0A=0A>____________________________= ____=0A> From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com>=0A>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz =0A>S= ent: Thursday, 13 November 2014 1:56 AM=0A>Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ God= s meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>Unfo= rtunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous system is not g= oing to be accurate.=0A>We cannot conclude what each point of success chanc= e is worth, because we cannot know what the result of the various quality r= esults would be. Factors like an opponent's armour or base damage have sign= ificant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some general values, but an ana= lysis that changes when the weights change does not tell us much. It is, at= best, a guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably a kind one= .. =0A>=0A>=0A>We can conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of = 100 is substantially less valuable than points below 101, however.=0A>=0A>= =0A>In the face of a reducing return on investment with respect to success = chance, players will choose to broaden their path of development. In genera= l, a system that supports players when they specialise (and encourages them= to stay specialised) is more interesting than one where they develop acros= s a wide range of abilities. Especially if they are only doing it as a way = of using up Experience effectively. Which would never happen in DQ, because= , of course, DQ players advance their characters on the basis of the integr= ity of their role-playing and a mystic devotion to an ineffable ideal which= is best described by the quote 'It's something I feel, here, deep inside'.= Pauses may have to be inserted to indicate the profundity of the emotions = expressed.=0A>=0A>=0A>Consider DQ as it currently stands. There are three g= ame engines at work. =0A>The Skill game engine has relatively constant succ= ess chances, and the player generally knows their success chance before the= y attempt something. Sure, there are a few, for example finding / removing = traps, curing poison etc, but by and large the chance does not substantiall= y vary. Things that do not usually take place in a dramatic situations are = relatively certain as opposed to those where suspense may be generated.=0A>= =0A>=0A>The Magic game engine has similarly constant success chances, a pla= yer knows what their chance of Casting magic will be before they commit to = it, although its effectiveness may largely be ignored or at least ameliorat= ed by a successful Magic Resistance check. In addition, spell casting takes= 2 Pulses. A player knows what their Cast Chance will be before they cast i= t, although they do not know what their targets MR is like. =0A>=0A>=0A>The= Combat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which are seri= ously modified by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player cannot kn= ow until told by the DM whether or not they have hit, or if their Defense i= s sufficient to avoid a blow. On the other hand, it is possible to have 1 = or more combat Action in a Pulse.=0A>=0A>=0A>So, according to the system:= =0A>=09* Skill use is something that happens off stage and can be dealt wit= h reasonably mechanically.=0A>=09* Magic sacrifices Actions against certain= ty while Casting, but attracts uncertainty as to how it is applied.=0A>=09= Combat allows for more Actions, but sacrifices certainty on every side.=0A= >=0A>=0A>=0A>A unified game engine destroys this distinction, the differenc= es are lost and become blended into the same boring event. =0A>=0A>=0A>This= is not an improvement. Hardly any player considers spell casting as exciti= ng as melee unless they have a way of Casting every Pulse. That is, thankfu= lly, an ability that is reasonably thin on the ground, and hopefully gettin= g thinner every day. This impoverished system will make the game less inter= esting. While it can be exciting to steal a Possible Spec. Grievous from an= NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have one stolen from a player. =0A>= =0A>=0A>Finally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does = not attract new players. No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting= and say 'I've come to join up because I understand that you've come up wit= h a new system and I want desperately to try it out'. This will never happe= n.=0A>=0A>=0A>What will likely happen, however, is that some people will le= ave DQ on the bones of these changes. Those people who may have been thinki= ng about returning to DQ may abandon that plan. =0A>=0A>=0A>Whatever conclu= sion you come to with these infantile changes, I will never DM it. I am uni= nterested in playing in DQ under this system as well.=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>= =0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A= >=0A>On 12 November 2014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> = wrote:=0A>=0A>There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the syst= em is to allow low level characters to be able to hit extreme level charact= ers.=0A>>You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effect of t= his is to break defensive fighters.=0A>>Cheers Jules=0A>>On 12 Nov 2014 12:= 42, "Dean Ellis" <deangellis@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A>>=0A>>Hi All,=0A>>> =0A>>= >I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 100, wh= ether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed rolling. = Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis on the fac= t that it is my take on the subject.=0A>>> =0A>>>If we start at 1 as a base= then for each one we add to this we get the following:=0A>>>+1.0 to Tier 1= =0A>>>+0.4 to Tier 2=0A>>>+0.2 to Tier 3=0A>>>+0.1 to Tier 4=0A>>> =0A>>>I = therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum of i= ts component increases.=0A>>> =0A>>>Once we hit the first breakpoint, being= 99, the value changes as follows:=0A>>>+0 to Tier 1=0A>>>+0.4 to Tier 2=0A= >>>+0.2 to Tier 3=0A>>>+0.1 to Tier 4=0A>>> =0A>>>So initial analysis gives= each point a relative value of 0.7, though some value needs to be given to= the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here is it is not a straight bo= nus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, just converting the low en= d of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal value of 0.05 for a total = of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative value=0A>>> =0A>>>The next br= eakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it does occur at = the top end. Here the analysis becomes:=0A>>>+0 to Tier 1=0A>>>+0 to Tier 2= =0A>>>+0.2 to Tier 3=0A>>>+0.1 to Tier 4=0A>>> =0A>>>Giving an initial anal= ysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tier 6 n= umbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true valu= e is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a total value o= f 0.4. =0A>>> =0A>>>Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that t= he value of 1 point halves over 99 and halves again over 247=0A>>> =0A>>>Ch= eers,=0A>>> =0A>>>Dean=0A>>>=0A>>>From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net>= =0A>>>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz =0A>>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM=0A= >>>Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling= Combat system=0A>>> =0A>>>=0A>>>Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean fo= r picking it up), EN & SG chance for old system was=0A>>>calculated off the= capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where= =0A>>>the SC - Def > 99 were too low.=0A>>>Sorry about that, updated pdf is= attached.=0A>>>=0A>>>For those that weren't there and haven't heard.=0A>>>= The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but no= t into Probation.=0A>>>=0A>>>This means that games testing opposed rolling = are expected to use this version and provide=0A>>>feedback on this version.= =0A>>>If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ comb= at.=0A>>>=0A>>>This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is= progressed forward or dumped.=0A>>>=0A>>>Cheers, Stephen.=0A>>>=0A>>>On Fr= i, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm,=0A Stephen Martin wrote:=0A>>>> I have tried = to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing for or against the= m.=0A>>>> Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that ar= e either accepted or=0A>>>> addressed as part of the discussion and accepta= nce/rejection of this proposal.=0A>>>> Apologies if I have missed anyone's = raised issues or mistakenly lumped them in with one of the=0A>>>> issues be= low.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Game Balance=0A>>>> Statistically, the number o= f EN & SG results are increased.=0A>>>> * Statistically, unbalanced opponen= ts will become less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will=0A>>>> now miss= 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of t= he time=0A>>>> rather than 1%.=0A>>>> * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing arm= our for high defence) will get hit significantly more=0A>>>> often making t= his a less viable character choice.=0A>>>> * Damage/Armour increases in rel= ative=0A value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).=0A>>>> * Dice Roll modifiers= increase in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.=0A>>= >> * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are know= n and worked around,=0A>>>> any new system will have flaws which could unex= pectedly disrupt balance until they are found=0A>>>> and fixed or worked ar= ound.=0A>>>> * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work w= ith the current system, many=0A>>>> will need to be changed to achieve equi= valency under the new system.=0A>>>> E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Ar= mour 42% & 1.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Speed of Combat=0A>>>> * Opinion seems divided = whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and polarising=0A>>>> i= ssue. I think these cover most of the points raised:=0A>>>> - Any new syste= m or change will slow things down until everyone becomes familiar and adjus= ts.=0A>>>> - Waiting on the resolution of the=0A defence before the potenti= al damage can be resolved=0A>>>> requires a synchronous resolution of each = attack which is usually slower than the asynchronous=0A>>>> resolution that= can be applied to current DQ.=0A>>>> - Consulting charts and tables to res= olve actions slows things down. The resolution of the new=0A>>>> system can= be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but some people = will=0A>>>> always need the charts and tables.=0A>>>> - Preparation, rules = familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably have a greater impact=0A= >>>> on run time than the rules themselves.=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Drama/Enjoyment= =0A>>>> * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.= =0A>>>> * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the av= erage number of critical=0A>>>> results will increase there is the subjecti= ve impact to enjoyment of having your critical=0A>>>> success negated.=0A>>= >> * Thump Fest. - because=0A there is always a chance of hitting it may en= courage simply hitting=0A>>>> more rather than trying to find alternate or = more creative solutions.=0A>>>> * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling fee= ls more luck dependent (i.e. being lucky with low=0A>>>> dice rolls counts = for more than being skilled).=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> I have attached an expan= ded and corrected (change to EN chances was out) impact analysis=0A>>>> com= paring Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the Current and = New numbers as=0A>>>> well as the difference between them.=0A>>>> Attached = as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).=0A>>>> NB1 the las= t grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but included because I fo= und it=0A>>>> easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about de= fence and ripostes.=0A>>>> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of = hitting never dropping below 1% which means a=0A>>>> roll of 30 or less wil= l never=0A be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play= =0A>>>> the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the cu= rrent riposte chance is=0A>>>> capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defen= ce > SC is even more extreme.=0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> Cheers, Stephen.=0A>>>>= =0A>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote= :=0A>>>>> Special DQ Gods meeting =0A>>>>> Sunday the 9th of November=0A>= >>>> 1:00 pm onwards=0A>>>>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.=0A>>>= >>=0A>>>>> Greetings all,=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> I email this to the DQ email list= , as an agenda item for the special DQ=0A>>>>> Gods meeting I am calling on= Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39=0A>>>>> Sackville Street Grey= Lynn Auckland.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> Please find attached a MS Word document fo= r the Proposal for Opposed=0A>>>>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table t= his for a=0A vote.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of= November as I feel that we need=0A>>>>> more time than the normal 15-20 mi= ns before the Guild meeting. This time=0A>>>>> will be used to discuss the = proposal to be voted on.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> I encourage all open and respectfu= l debate on the DQ emailing list=0A>>>>> regarding the attached document.= =0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule cha= nges of any scale=0A>>>>> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in re= gards to the pending vote.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> 1. Table the item (proposal) = with a month notice of a meeting. (That is=0A>>>>> this email)=0A>>>>>= 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting=0A>>= >>> discussions.=0A>>>>> 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November= starting at 1:00 pm.=0A>>>>> =0A 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mi= ns.=0A>>>>> 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between = 2:00 pm and=0A>>>>> 2:30 pm.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> If passed by vote, then we = will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)=0A>>>>> with the responsibi= lity of writing up the actual Rules to go in the=0A>>>>> Rulebook.=0A>>>>>= =0A>>>>> - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into = the Rules=0A>>>>> if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and ac= cepted. If the GMs=0A>>>>> feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the= voted on 'Opposed Rolling=0A>>>>> Combat system', then they may ask for= an area to be clarified and worked on=0A>>>>> again until they match.= =0A>>>>> - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simpl= y be=0A>>>>> tabled at a=0A Gods meeting.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> At the same ti= me as the above we as GMs and interested players will=0A>>>>> continue work= ing on the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang=0A>>>>> off t= he Proposal.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> - These items are things like (in no partic= ular order): Adam Tenant :-),=0A>>>>> Defense, Special attacks like trip= or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,=0A>>>>> Assassin / Warrior comb= at bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resistance etc=0A>>>>> etc=0A>>>>> = - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play tested= =0A>>>>> in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and the= n voted on=0A>>>>> in the normal way.=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> Stephen Martin has= pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this=0A>>>>> substantial chang= e to a general vote of the players at a Guild=0A meeting. I=0A>>>>> will as= k Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th.=0A>>>>>=0A>= >>>>=0A>>>>> Kind regards,=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>> Jonathan Bean=0A>>>>> 39 Sackvil= le St, Grey Lynn=0A>>>>> P: +64 9 378 6635=0A>>>>> M: +64 21 917 173=0A>>>>= > G: jonobean@gmail.com=0A>>>>>=0A>>>>=0A>>>=0A>>>=0A>=0A>=0A> --1228296801-477432846-1415826045=:27172 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He= lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;fo= nt-size:12px"><div><span>having done this type of analysis professionally f= or a while now, i am confident Dean, or I for that matter, can make useful = interpretations of the data to predict their impact on the game.</span></di= v><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-family: Helvetic= aNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-c= olor: transparent; font-style: normal;"><br><span></span></div><div style= =3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-family: HelveticaNeue,Helvet= ica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif; background-color: transp= arent; font-style: normal;"><span>Your conclusion below is flawed, however,= chances above 100 are still valuable, indeed they are higly weighted in a = criticals based system.<br></span></div><div><br></div><blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin= -top: 5px; padding-left: 5px;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, = Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12p= x;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, A= rial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr s= ize=3D"1"> <font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:= bold;">From:</span></b> Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com><br> <b><span = style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> dq@dq.sf.org.nz <br> <b><span s= tyle=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 13 November 2014 1:5= 6 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dq]= Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br> <= /font> </div> <div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br><div id=3D"yiv7959511082">= <div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"fo= nt-family:georgia, serif;">Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous sy= stem is not going to be accurate.</div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_def= ault" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">We cannot conclude what each po= int of success chance is worth, because we cannot know what the result of t= he various quality results would be. Factors like an opponent's armour or b= ase damage have significant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some genera= l values, but an analysis that changes when the weights change does not tel= l us much. It is, at best, a guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and= probably a kind one. </div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" = style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class= =3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">We ca= n conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of 100 is substantiall= y less valuable than points below 101, however.</div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"= ><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style= =3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">In the face of a reducing return on invest= ment with respect to success chance, players will choose to broaden their p= ath of development. In general, a system that supports players when they sp= ecialise (and encourages them to stay specialised) is more interesting than= one where they develop across a wide range of abilities. Especially if the= y are only doing it as a way of using up Experience effectively. Which woul= d never happen in DQ, because, of course, DQ players advance their characte= rs on the basis of the integrity of their role-playing and a mystic devotio= n to an ineffable ideal which is best described by the quote 'It's somethin= g I feel, here, deep inside'. Pauses may have to be inserted to indicate th= e profundity of the emotions expressed.</div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"= ><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style= =3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">Consider DQ as it currently stands. There = are three game engines at work. </div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail= _default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">The Skill game engine has r= elatively constant success chances, and the player generally knows their su= ccess chance before they attempt something. Sure, there are a few, for exam= ple finding / removing traps, curing poison etc, but by and large the chanc= e does not substantially vary. Things that do not usually take place in a d= ramatic situations are relatively certain as opposed to those where suspens= e may be generated.</div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D= "font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv795= 9511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">The Magic game = engine has similarly constant success chances, a player knows what their chance of Ca= sting magic will be before they commit to it, although its effectiveness ma= y largely be ignored or at least ameliorated by a successful Magic Resistan= ce check. In addition, spell casting takes 2 Pulses. A player knows what th= eir Cast Chance will be before they cast it, although they do not know what= their targets MR is like. </div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_defa= ult" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div cl= ass=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">Th= e Combat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which are ser= iously modified by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player cannot k= now until told by the DM whether or not they have hit, or if their Defense = is sufficient to avoid a blow.  On the other hand, it is possible to h= ave 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse.</div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"= ><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style= =3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">So, according to the system:</div><div cla= ss=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D""><ul style=3D""><li style=3D"fo= nt-family:georgia, serif;">Skill use is something that happens off stage an= d can be dealt with reasonably mechanically.</li><li><span style=3D"font-fa= mily:georgia, serif;">Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while Cast= ing, but attracts uncertainty as to how it is applied.</span></li><li><span= style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">Combat allows for more Actions, but = sacrifices certainty on every side.</span><br clear=3D"none"></li></ul></di= v><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, s= erif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" s= tyle=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">A unified game engine destroys this di= stinction, the differences are lost and become blended into the same boring event. </div><div cl= ass=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><b= r clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"f= ont-family:georgia, serif;">This is not an improvement. Hardly any player c= onsiders spell casting as exciting as melee unless they have a way of Casti= ng every Pulse. That is, thankfully, an ability that is reasonably thin on = the ground, and hopefully getting thinner every day. This impoverished syst= em will make the game less interesting. While it can be exciting to steal a= Possible Spec. Grievous from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have = one stolen from a player. </div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_defau= lt" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div cla= ss=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;">Fin= ally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does not attract= new players. No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting and say 'I've come to j= oin up because I understand that you've come up with a new system and I wan= t desperately to try it out'. This will never happen.</div><div class=3D"yi= v7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear= =3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam= ily:georgia, serif;">What will likely happen, however, is that some people = will leave DQ on the bones of these changes. Those people who may have been= thinking about returning to DQ may abandon that plan. </div><div clas= s=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br = clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:georgia, serif;">Whatever conclusion you come to with these infant= ile changes, I will never DM it. I am uninterested in playing in DQ under t= his system as well.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmai= l_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class= =3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br c= lear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font= -family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv79595110= 82gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"><= /div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia= , serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default= " style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class= =3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br c= lear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_default" style=3D"font= -family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv79595110= 82gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:georgia, serif;"><br clear=3D"none"><= /div></div><div class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yiv7959= 511082yqt8210943215" id=3D"yiv7959511082yqt13841"><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_extra"><br c= lear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_quote">On 12 November 2014 2= 3:48, Julia McSpadden <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"re= ct" ymailto=3D"mailto:juliamcspadden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"m= ailto:juliamcspadden@gmail.com">juliamcspadden@gmail.com</a>></span> wro= te:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div di= r=3D"ltr">There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the system i= s to allow low level characters to be able to hit extreme level characters.= </div>=0A<div dir=3D"ltr">You can write as many analysis as you like but th= e net effect of this is to break defensive fighters.</div>=0A<div dir=3D"lt= r">Cheers Jules</div>=0A<div class=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_quote">On 12 Nov 2= 014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"m= ailto:deangellis@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:deangellis@yah= oo.com">deangellis@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote c= lass=3D"yiv7959511082gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-co= lor:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucid= a Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><div>Hi All,</div><div> </div><d= iv>I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over = 100, whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed ro= lling. Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasi= s on the fact that it is my take on the subject.</div><div> </div><div= >If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the fol= lowing:</div><div>+1.0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier= 4</div><div> </div><div>I therefore have given each point a relative = value of 1.7, being the sum of its component increases.</div><div> </d= iv><div>Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as fo= llows:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier=0A 2</div><div>+0.2 to= Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div> </div><div>So initial anal= ysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some value needs to b= e given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here is it is not a s= traight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, just converting = the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal value of 0.05 fo= r a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative value</div><div>&nb= sp;</div><div>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a s= tretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes:</div><div>= +0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1= to Tier 4</div><div> </div><div>Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Ag= ain we do need to take into account the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except = again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true value is hard to ad= judge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a=0A total value of 0.4. </div= ><div> </div><div>Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is tha= t the value of 1 point halves over 99 and halves again over 247</= div><div> </div><div>Cheers,</div><div> </div><div>Dean<br clear= =3D"none"></div> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, = Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"> <div style=3D= "font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande= , sans-serif;font-size:16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style=3D"margin:5px 0= px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);min-height:0px;line-height= :0;font-size:0px;"></div> <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-wei= ght:bold;">From:</span></b> Stephen Martin <<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D= "rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mail= to:stephenm@aklnz.net">stephenm@aklnz.net</a>><br clear=3D"none"> <b><sp= an style=3D"font-weight:bold;">To:</span></b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank" href= =3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a> <br clear=3D"none"> <b><spa= n style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 10, 2014 10= :39=0A AM<br clear=3D"none"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold;">Subject:<= /span></b> Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling = Combat system<br clear=3D"none"> </font> </div> <div><br clear=3D"none">Cor= rection to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance= for old system was<br clear=3D"none">calculated off the capped SC (max of = 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where<br clear=3D"none">t= he SC - Def > 99 were too low.<br clear=3D"none">Sorry about that, updat= ed pdf is attached.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">For those that wer= en't there and haven't heard.<br clear=3D"none">The vote was passed to put = the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Probation.<br clear= =3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">This means that games testing opposed rolling = are expected to use this version and provide<br clear=3D"none">feedback on = this version.<br clear=3D"none">If not play testing this then they should b= e playing standard DQ combat.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">This Play Test is expected to= last up to a year before it is progressed forward or dumped.<br clear=3D"n= one"><br clear=3D"none">Cheers, Stephen.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"non= e">On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm,=0A Stephen Martin wrote:<br clear=3D"= none">> I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without ar= guing for or against them.<br clear=3D"none">> Hopefully this can be con= sidered a list of issues/impacts that are either accepted or<br clear=3D"no= ne">> addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of th= is proposal.<br clear=3D"none">> Apologies if I have missed anyone's rai= sed issues or mistakenly lumped them in with one of the<br clear=3D"none">&= gt; issues below.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D= "none">> Game Balance<br clear=3D"none">> * Statistically, the number= of EN & SG results are increased.<br clear=3D"none">> * Statistical= ly, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defenc= e will<br clear=3D"none">> now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. L= ow SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of the time<br clear=3D"none">> rather= than 1%.<br clear=3D"none">> * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit significantly more<br c= lear=3D"none">> often making this a less viable character choice.<br cle= ar=3D"none">> * Damage/Armour increases in relative=0A value to SC/Def (= once % is over 100).<br clear=3D"none">> * Dice Roll modifiers increase = in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offence.<br clear=3D"no= ne">> * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which ar= e known and worked around,<br clear=3D"none">> any new system will have = flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance until they are found<br clea= r=3D"none">> and fixed or worked around.<br clear=3D"none">> * Existi= ng items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the current syste= m, many<br clear=3D"none">> will need to be changed to achieve equivalen= cy under the new system.<br clear=3D"none">>  E.g. Rune Armour 25%= & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"no= ne">> Speed of Combat<br clear=3D"none">> * Opinion seems divided whe= ther the new system is faster. A very subjective and polarising<br clear=3D= "none">> issue. I think these cover most of the points raised:<br clear=3D"none">> - Any new system or change will slow things down until= everyone becomes familiar and adjusts.<br clear=3D"none">> - Waiting on= the resolution of the=0A defence before the potential damage can be resolv= ed<br clear=3D"none">> requires a synchronous resolution of each attack = which is usually slower than the asynchronous<br clear=3D"none">> resolu= tion that can be applied to current DQ.<br clear=3D"none">> - Consulting= charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The resolution of = the new<br clear=3D"none">> system can be done mentally (the same is tru= e of the current system) but some people will<br clear=3D"none">> always= need the charts and tables.<br clear=3D"none">> - Preparation, rules fa= miliarity, and concentration/discipline probably have a greater impact<br c= lear=3D"none">> on run time than the rules themselves.<br clear=3D"none"= >><br clear=3D"none">> Drama/Enjoyment<br clear=3D"none">> * Consu= lting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs.<br clear=3D"none= ">> * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the ave= rage number of critical<br clear=3D"none">> results will increase there is the subjective impact t= o enjoyment of having your critical<br clear=3D"none">> success negated.= <br clear=3D"none">> * Thump Fest. - because=0A there is always a chance= of hitting it may encourage simply hitting<br clear=3D"none">> more rat= her than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions.<br clear=3D"n= one">> * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent= (i.e. being lucky with low<br clear=3D"none">> dice rolls counts for mo= re than being skilled).<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br cl= ear=3D"none">> I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN c= hances was out) impact analysis<br clear=3D"none">> comparing Current DQ= with the proposed change. Also including the Current and New numbers as<br= clear=3D"none">> well as the difference between them.<br clear=3D"none"= >> Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same).<br = clear=3D"none">> NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of= Hits but included because I found it<br clear=3D"none">> easier to refe= r to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and ripostes.<br clear=3D"none">> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the cha= nce of hitting never dropping below 1% which means a<br clear=3D"none">>= roll of 30 or less will never=0A be riposte-able under the current rules. = If as some people play<br clear=3D"none">> the riposte chance is based o= n (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current riposte chance is<br clear=3D"n= one">> capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even mo= re extreme.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none"= >> Cheers, Stephen.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br cle= ar=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, J= onathan Bean wrote:<br clear=3D"none">>> Special DQ Gods meeting <b= r clear=3D"none">>> Sunday the 9th of November<br clear=3D"none">>= > 1:00 pm onwards<br clear=3D"none">>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey L= ynn Auckland.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Greetin= gs all,<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> I email this = to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ<br clear=3D"none= ">>> Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39<br clear=3D"none">>> Sackville Street Grey= Lynn Auckland.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Plea= se find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed<br clear= =3D"none">>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a=0A vot= e.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> I am calling this = meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need<br clear=3D"none">&g= t;> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This = time<br clear=3D"none">>> will be used to discuss the proposal to be = voted on.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> I encourage= all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list<br clear=3D"none">&= gt;> regarding the attached document.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clea= r=3D"none">>> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule = changes of any scale<br clear=3D"none">>> and size in DQ. I have of c= ourse written it in regards to the pending vote.<br clear=3D"none">>>= <br clear=3D"none">>>    1. Table the item (proposal) with = a month notice of a meeting. (That is<br clear=3D"none">>>  &nb= sp; this email)<br clear=3D"none">>>    2. Talk about it i= n a civilised way leading to fun and interesting<br clear=3D"none">>>    dis= cussions.<br clear=3D"none">>>    3. Have the Gods meeting = on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br clear=3D"none">>> = =0A   4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br clear=3D"none">&gt= ;>    5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote betw= een 2:00 pm and<br clear=3D"none">>>    2:30 pm.<br clear= =3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> If passed by vote, then we wi= ll charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)<br clear=3D"none">>> wi= th the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the<br clear= =3D"none">>> Rulebook.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">&= gt;>    - Once written (some time later) these core rules will= go into the Rules<br clear=3D"none">>>    if the GMs feel = (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs<br clear=3D"none">= >>    feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted o= n 'Opposed Rolling<br clear=3D"none">>>    Combat system', = then they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on<br clear=3D"non= e">>>    again until they match.<br clear=3D"none">>>    - S= ome time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be<br clear= =3D"none">>>    tabled at a=0A Gods meeting.<br clear=3D"no= ne">>><br clear=3D"none">>> At the same time as the above we as= GMs and interested players will<br clear=3D"none">>> continue workin= g on the supporting elements of the combat rules which hang<br clear=3D"non= e">>> off the Proposal.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">= >>    - These items are things like (in no particular order= ): Adam Tenant :-),<br clear=3D"none">>>    Defense, Specia= l attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat rules,<br clear=3D"non= e">>>    Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonu= s, Magic Resistance etc<br clear=3D"none">>>    etc<br clea= r=3D"none">>>    - I expect that these countless supporting= elements will be play tested<br clear=3D"none">>>    in re= lationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then voted on<br cle= ar=3D"none">>>    in the normal way.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Stephen Martin has poin= ted out that the GMs may wish to direct this<br clear=3D"none">>> sub= stantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild=0A meeting. I<b= r clear=3D"none">>> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the god= s meeting on the 9th.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>>= <br clear=3D"none">>> Kind regards,<br clear=3D"none">>><br cle= ar=3D"none">>> Jonathan Bean<br clear=3D"none">>> 39 Sackville = St, Grey Lynn<br clear=3D"none">>> P: <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" s= hape=3D"rect">+64 9 378 6635</a><br clear=3D"none">>> M: <a href=3D""= rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 21 917 173</a><br clear=3D"none">>&= gt; G: <a href=3D"" rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">jonobean@gmail.com</a><= br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none"><br cle= ar=3D"none"></div> </div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div>=0A</block= quote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div= > </div> </blockquote><div></div> </div></body></html> --1228296801-477432846-1415826045=:27172-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Julia McSpadden
Date	Thu, 13 Nov 2014 10:29:17 +1300
--001a11431890905ef90507b0168d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Is this a pissing up a wall contest I have a degree in Politics and have spent 3 years studying how to make numbers lie The first way of doing this is to shape an argument by dictating the questions asked and then use analysis to support that question and hope nobody notices Then I have spent 25 years doing data analysis as employment I am not an idiot nor do I think anyone else is I think that the stated aims of this system are to allow low level characters to hit high level characters (npc's or pc's) makes no difference On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Ian Wood <dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz> wrote: > having done this type of analysis professionally for a while now, i am > confident Dean, or I for that matter, can make useful interpretations of > the data to predict their impact on the game. > > Your conclusion below is flawed, however, chances above 100 are still > valuable, indeed they are higly weighted in a criticals based system. > > ------------------------------ > From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Sent: Thursday, 13 November 2014 1:56 AM > Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed > Rolling Combat system > > Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous system is > not going to be accurate. > We cannot conclude what each point of success chance is worth, because we > cannot know what the result of the various quality results would be. > Factors like an opponent's armour or base damage have significant impacts. > We could, I suppose, posit some general values, but an analysis that > changes when the weights change does not tell us much. It is, at best, a > guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably a kind one. > > We can conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of 100 is > substantially less valuable than points below 101, however. > > In the face of a reducing return on investment with respect to success > chance, players will choose to broaden their path of development. In > general, a system that supports players when they specialise (and > encourages them to stay specialised) is more interesting than one where > they develop across a wide range of abilities. Especially if they are only > doing it as a way of using up Experience effectively. Which would never > happen in DQ, because, of course, DQ players advance their characters on > the basis of the integrity of their role-playing and a mystic devotion to > an ineffable ideal which is best described by the quote 'It's something I > feel, here, deep inside'. Pauses may have to be inserted to indicate the > profundity of the emotions expressed. > > Consider DQ as it currently stands. There are three game engines at work. > The Skill game engine has relatively constant success chances, and the > player generally knows their success chance before they attempt something. > Sure, there are a few, for example finding / removing traps, curing poison > etc, but by and large the chance does not substantially vary. Things that > do not usually take place in a dramatic situations are relatively certain > as opposed to those where suspense may be generated. > > The Magic game engine has similarly constant success chances, a player > knows what their chance of Casting magic will be before they commit to it, > although its effectiveness may largely be ignored or at least ameliorated > by a successful Magic Resistance check. In addition, spell casting takes 2 > Pulses. A player knows what their Cast Chance will be before they cast it, > although they do not know what their targets MR is like. > > The Combat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which are > seriously modified by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player > cannot know until told by the DM whether or not they have hit, or if their > Defense is sufficient to avoid a blow. On the other hand, it is possible > to have 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse. > > So, according to the system: > > - Skill use is something that happens off stage and can be dealt with > reasonably mechanically. > - Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while Casting, but > attracts uncertainty as to how it is applied. > - Combat allows for more Actions, but sacrifices certainty on every > side. > > > A unified game engine destroys this distinction, the differences are lost > and become blended into the same boring event. > > This is not an improvement. Hardly any player considers spell casting as > exciting as melee unless they have a way of Casting every Pulse. That is, > thankfully, an ability that is reasonably thin on the ground, and hopefully > getting thinner every day. This impoverished system will make the game less > interesting. While it can be exciting to steal a Possible Spec. Grievous > from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have one stolen from a player. > > Finally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does not > attract new players. No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting and > say 'I've come to join up because I understand that you've come up with a > new system and I want desperately to try it out'. This will never happen. > > What will likely happen, however, is that some people will leave DQ on the > bones of these changes. Those people who may have been thinking about > returning to DQ may abandon that plan. > > Whatever conclusion you come to with these infantile changes, I will never > DM it. I am uninterested in playing in DQ under this system as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 November 2014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> > wrote: > > There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the system is to > allow low level characters to be able to hit extreme level characters. > You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effect of this is > to break defensive fighters. > Cheers Jules > On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <deangellis@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Hi All, > > I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 100, > whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed > rolling. Here is my analysis on the subject, plus comments, with emphasis > on the fact that it is my take on the subject. > > If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get the > following: > +1.0 to Tier 1 > +0.4 to Tier 2 > +0.2 to Tier 3 > +0.1 to Tier 4 > > I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the sum > of its component increases. > > Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as follows: > +0 to Tier 1 > +0.4 to Tier 2 > +0.2 to Tier 3 > +0.1 to Tier 4 > > So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though some > value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here > is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbers, > just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nominal > value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative > value > > The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, it > does occur at the top end. Here the analysis becomes: > +0 to Tier 1 > +0 to Tier 2 > +0.2 to Tier 3 > +0.1 to Tier 4 > > Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account > the addition of Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 > numbers, so its true value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both > 0.05 for a total value of 0.4. > > Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point > halves over 99 and halves again over 247 > > Cheers, > > Dean > From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> > To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM > Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed > Rolling Combat system > > Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance > for old system was > calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def so all > SG/EN cells where > the SC - Def > 99 were too low. > Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached. > > For those that weren't there and haven't heard. > The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but > not into Probation. > > This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use this > version and provide > feedback on this version. > If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ combat. > > This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progressed > forward or dumped. > > Cheers, Stephen. > > On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote: > > I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without arguing > for or against them. > > Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are > either accepted or > > addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of this > proposal. > > Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped > them in with one of the > > issues below. > > > > > > Game Balance > > * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased. > > * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. High > SC vs Low defence will > > now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit > 10-30% of the time > > rather than 1%. > > * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit > significantly more > > often making this a less viable character choice. > > * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over > 100). > > * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence > as well as offence. > > * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are > known and worked around, > > any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance > until they are found > > and fixed or worked around. > > * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with the > current system, many > > will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system. > > E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1. > > > > Speed of Combat > > * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very > subjective and polarising > > issue. I think these cover most of the points raised: > > - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone becomes > familiar and adjusts. > > - Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage > can be resolved > > requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower > than the asynchronous > > resolution that can be applied to current DQ. > > - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down. The > resolution of the new > > system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) but > some people will > > always need the charts and tables. > > - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline probably > have a greater impact > > on run time than the rules themselves. > > > > Drama/Enjoyment > > * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs. > > * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average > number of critical > > results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment of > having your critical > > success negated. > > * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may > encourage simply hitting > > more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solutions. > > * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (i.e. > being lucky with low > > dice rolls counts for more than being skilled). > > > > > > I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was out) > impact analysis > > comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the > Current and New numbers as > > well as the difference between them. > > Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same). > > NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but > included because I found it > > easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence and > ripostes. > > NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropping > below 1% which means a > > roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules. > If as some people play > > the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the current > riposte chance is > > capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more extreme. > > > > > > Cheers, Stephen. > > > > > > > > On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote: > >> Special DQ Gods meeting > >> Sunday the 9th of November > >> 1:00 pm onwards > >> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland. > >> > >> Greetings all, > >> > >> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the special DQ > >> Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm > 39 > >> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland. > >> > >> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed > >> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote. > >> > >> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need > >> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. This time > >> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on. > >> > >> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list > >> regarding the attached document. > >> > >> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of any > scale > >> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pending > vote. > >> > >> 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. > (That is > >> this email) > >> 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting > >> discussions. > >> 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm. > >> 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. > >> 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:00 pm > and > >> 2:30 pm. > >> > >> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or > Andrew) > >> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the > >> Rulebook. > >> > >> - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into the > Rules > >> if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. If the > GMs > >> feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed > Rolling > >> Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and > worked on > >> again until they match. > >> - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be > >> tabled at a Gods meeting. > >> > >> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will > >> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules which > hang > >> off the Proposal. > >> > >> - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant > :-), > >> Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close combat > rules, > >> Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic > Resistance etc > >> etc > >> - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be play > tested > >> in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and then > voted on > >> in the normal way. > >> > >> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this > >> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting. > I > >> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the 9th. > >> > >> > >> Kind regards, > >> > >> Jonathan Bean > >> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn > >> P: +64 9 378 6635 > >> M: +64 21 917 173 > >> G: jonobean@gmail.com > >> > > > > > > > --001a11431890905ef90507b0168d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr">Is this a pissing up a wall contest<div><br></div><div>I h= ave a degree in Politics and have spent 3 years studying how to make number= s lie</div><div><br></div><div>The first way of doing this is to shape an a= rgument by dictating the questions asked and then use analysis to support t= hat question and hope nobody notices</div><div><br></div><div>Then I have s= pent 25 years doing data analysis as employment</div><div><br></div><div>I = am not an idiot nor do I think anyone else is</div><div><br></div><div>I th= ink that the stated aims of this system are</div><div><br></div><div>to all= ow low level characters to hit high level characters (npc's or pc's= ) makes no difference</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di= v><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"= >On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Ian Wood <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= =3D"mailto:dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz" target=3D"_blank">dawnhaven@xtra.co.nz</a>= ></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0= 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"col= or:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helv= etica,Arial,Lucida Grande,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px"><div><span>having done= this type of analysis professionally for a while now, i am confident Dean,= or I for that matter, can make useful interpretations of the data to predi= ct their impact on the game.</span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon= t-size:12px;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida= Grande,sans-serif;background-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><br><spa= n></span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12px;font-family:He= lveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;backgro= und-color:transparent;font-style:normal"><span>Your conclusion below is fla= wed, however, chances above 100 are still valuable, indeed they are higly w= eighted in a criticals based system.<br></span></div><div><br></div><blockq= uote style=3D"border-left:2px solid rgb(16,16,255);margin-left:5px;margin-t= op:5px;padding-left:5px"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetic= a Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,Sans-Serif;font-size:12px"> <div style= =3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,= Sans-Serif;font-size:12px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <hr size=3D"1"> <font face= =3D"Arial"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Jim Arona = <<a href=3D"mailto:jim.arona@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jim.arona@gmai= l.com</a>><br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a hre= f=3D"mailto:dq@dq.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a> <br> <b>= <span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, 13 November 201= 4 1:56 AM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [= dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system<br= > </font> </div> <div><br><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-fam= ily:georgia,serif">Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of t= his parlous system is not going to be accurate.</div><div style=3D"font-fam= ily:georgia,serif">We cannot conclude what each point of success chance is = worth, because we cannot know what the result of the various quality result= s would be. Factors like an opponent's armour or base damage have signi= ficant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some general values, but an anal= ysis that changes when the weights change does not tell us much. It is, at = best, a guess to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably a kind one.= =C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></d= iv><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">We can conclude that every poin= t of Base Chance in excess of 100 is substantially less valuable than point= s below 101, however.</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br cle= ar=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">In the face of a= reducing return on investment with respect to success chance, players will= choose to broaden their path of development. In general, a system that sup= ports players when they specialise (and encourages them to stay specialised= ) is more interesting than one where they develop across a wide range of ab= ilities. Especially if they are only doing it as a way of using up Experien= ce effectively. Which would never happen in DQ, because, of course, DQ play= ers advance their characters on the basis of the integrity of their role-pl= aying and a mystic devotion to an ineffable ideal which is best described b= y the quote 'It's something I feel, here, deep inside'. Pauses = may have to be inserted to indicate the profundity of the emotions expresse= d.</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><= div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Consider DQ as it currently stands.= There are three game engines at work.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family= :georgia,serif">The Skill game engine has relatively constant success chanc= es, and the player generally knows their success chance before they attempt= something. Sure, there are a few, for example finding / removing traps, cu= ring poison etc, but by and large the chance does not substantially vary. T= hings that do not usually take place in a dramatic situations are relativel= y certain as opposed to those where suspense may be generated.</div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"fo= nt-family:georgia,serif">The Magic game engine has similarly constant success chances, a player knows what their chance of Ca= sting magic will be before they commit to it, although its effectiveness ma= y largely be ignored or at least ameliorated by a successful Magic Resistan= ce check. In addition, spell casting takes 2 Pulses. A player knows what th= eir Cast Chance will be before they cast it, although they do not know what= their targets MR is like.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,ser= if"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">The C= ombat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which are seriou= sly modified by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player cannot = know until told by the DM whether or not they have hit, or if their Defense= is sufficient to avoid a blow.=C2=A0 On the other hand, it is possible to = have 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse.</div><div style=3D"font-family:geo= rgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,seri= f">So, according to the system:</div><div><ul><li style=3D"font-family:geor= gia,serif">Skill use is something that happens off stage and can be dealt w= ith reasonably mechanically.</li><li><span style=3D"font-family:georgia,ser= if">Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while Casting, but attracts = uncertainty as to how it is applied.</span></li><li><span style=3D"font-fam= ily:georgia,serif">Combat allows for more Actions, but sacrifices certainty= on every side.</span><br clear=3D"none"></li></ul></div><div style=3D"font= -family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:g= eorgia,serif">A unified game engine destroys this distinction, the differen= ces are lost and become blended into the same boring event.=C2=A0</div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"fo= nt-family:georgia,serif">This is not an improvement. Hardly any player cons= iders spell casting as exciting as melee unless they have a way of Casting = every Pulse. That is, thankfully, an ability that is reasonably thin on the= ground, and hopefully getting thinner every day. This impoverished system = will make the game less interesting. While it can be exciting to steal a Po= ssible Spec. Grievous from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have one= stolen from a player.=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">= <br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Finally, = and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does not attract new p= layers. No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting and say 'I've c= ome to join up because I understand that you've come up with a new syst= em and I want desperately to try it out'. This will never happen.</div>= <div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div styl= e=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">What will likely happen, however, is that s= ome people will leave DQ on the bones of these changes. Those people who ma= y have been thinking about returning to DQ may abandon that plan.=C2=A0</di= v><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">Whatever conclusion you come to with thes= e infantile changes, I will never DM it. I am uninterested in playing in DQ= under this system as well.<br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-fami= ly:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgi= a,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif">= <br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear= =3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"= ></div><div style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><d= iv style=3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style= =3D"font-family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div style=3D"font-= family:georgia,serif"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div><div><br><br></div><di= v><div><br clear=3D"none"><div>On 12 November 2014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <= span dir=3D"ltr"><<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:juli= amcspadden@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">juliamcspadden@gmail.com</a>></s= pan> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border= -left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">There is no confusi= on about the fact that the aim of the system is to allow low level characte= rs to be able to hit extreme level characters.</div> <div dir=3D"ltr">You can write as many analysis as you like but the net eff= ect of this is to break defensive fighters.</div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Cheers Jules</div> <div>On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <<a rel=3D"nofollow" s= hape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:deangellis@yahoo.com" target=3D"_blank">deange= llis@yahoo.com</a>> wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D= "color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,= Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px"><div>Hi All,</div>= <div>=C2=A0</div><div>I feel there is some confusion as to the=C2=A0concept= that numbers over 100, whether they be SC of Defence, become less meaningf= ul under opposed rolling.=C2=A0Here is my analysis on the subject, plus com= ments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take on the subject.</div><d= iv>=C2=A0</div><div>If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to = this we get the following:</div><div>+1.0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier= 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>I therefore have given each point a relative = value of 1.7, being the sum of its component increases.</div><div>=C2=A0</d= iv><div>Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as fo= llows:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0.4 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to Tier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div>= <div>So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though s= ome value needs to be given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem h= ere is it is not a straight bonus, as this new tier is not adding any numbe= rs, just converting the low end of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I have given it a nomi= nal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesenting a 55% drop in relative= value</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While = for most this is a stretch, it does occur at the top end. Here the analysis= becomes:</div><div>+0 to Tier 1</div><div>+0 to Tier 2</div><div>+0.2 to T= ier 3</div><div>+0.1 to Tier 4</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Giving an initial= analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into account the addition of Tie= r 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, so its true= value is hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a total value of 0.4. </div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Using this analysis as a g= uide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 point halves=C2=A0over 99 and ha= lves again=C2=A0over 247</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Cheers,</div><div>=C2= =A0</div><div>Dean<br clear=3D"none"></div> <div style=3D"font-family:Helv= eticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size= :12px"> <div style=3D"font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Ar= ial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <div style= =3D"margin:5px 0px;padding:0px;border:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);min-height= :0px;line-height:0;font-size:0px"></div> <font face=3D"Arial"> <b><span st= yle=3D"font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Stephen Martin <<a rel=3D"nofo= llow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:stephenm@aklnz.net" target=3D"_blank">s= tephenm@aklnz.net</a>><br clear=3D"none"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:= bold">To:</span></b> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:dq@d= q.sf.org.nz" target=3D"_blank">dq@dq.sf.org.nz</a> <br clear=3D"none"> <b><= span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Monday, November 10, 2014 = 10:39 AM<br clear=3D"none"> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span><= /b> Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat = system<br clear=3D"none"> </font> </div> <div><br clear=3D"none">Correction= to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG chance for ol= d system was<br clear=3D"none">calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rat= her than the raw SC-Def so all SG/EN cells where<br clear=3D"none">the SC -= Def > 99 were too low.<br clear=3D"none">Sorry about that, updated pdf = is attached.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">For those that weren'= t there and haven't heard.<br clear=3D"none">The vote was passed to put= the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest but not into Probation.<br clear= =3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">This means that games testing opposed rolling = are expected to use this version and provide<br clear=3D"none">feedback on = this version.<br clear=3D"none">If not play testing this then they should b= e playing standard DQ combat.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">This Play Test is expected to= last up to a year before it is progressed forward or dumped.<br clear=3D"n= one"><br clear=3D"none">Cheers, Stephen.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"non= e">On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, Stephen Martin wrote:<br clear=3D"none">> I have tried to summarise and= group the raised issues without arguing for or against them.<br clear=3D"n= one">> Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that ar= e either accepted or<br clear=3D"none">> addressed as part of the discus= sion and acceptance/rejection of this proposal.<br clear=3D"none">> Apol= ogies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lumped them= in with one of the<br clear=3D"none">> issues below.<br clear=3D"none">= ><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">> Game Balance<br clear=3D= "none">> * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increase= d.<br clear=3D"none">> * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become= less unbalanced. High SC vs Low defence will<br clear=3D"none">> now mi= ss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will hit 10-30% of= the time<br clear=3D"none">> rather than 1%.<br clear=3D"none">> * &= #39;Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get hit significantly more<br c= lear=3D"none">> often making this a less viable character choice.<br cle= ar=3D"none">> * Damage/Armour increases in relative value to SC/Def (once % is over 100).<br clear=3D"none">> * Dice Roll m= odifiers increase in impact now that they apply to defence as well as offen= ce.<br clear=3D"none">> * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system = has flaws which are known and worked around,<br clear=3D"none">> any new= system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt balance until they= are found<br clear=3D"none">> and fixed or worked around.<br clear=3D"n= one">> * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with= the current system, many<br clear=3D"none">> will need to be changed to= achieve equivalency under the new system.<br clear=3D"none">>=C2=A0 E.= g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1.<br clear=3D"none">&= gt;<br clear=3D"none">> Speed of Combat<br clear=3D"none">> * Opinion= seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very subjective and pola= rising<br clear=3D"none">> issue. I think these cover most of the points= raised:<br clear=3D"none">> - Any new system or change will slow things= down until everyone becomes familiar and adjusts.<br clear=3D"none">> -= Waiting on the resolution of the defence before the potential damage can be resolved<br clear=3D"none">>= requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually slower t= han the asynchronous<br clear=3D"none">> resolution that can be applied = to current DQ.<br clear=3D"none">> - Consulting charts and tables to res= olve actions slows things down. The resolution of the new<br clear=3D"none"= >> system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system) = but some people will<br clear=3D"none">> always need the charts and tabl= es.<br clear=3D"none">> - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentrat= ion/discipline probably have a greater impact<br clear=3D"none">> on run= time than the rules themselves.<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">&= gt; Drama/Enjoyment<br clear=3D"none">> * Consulting charts/tables detra= cts from the 'face time' of RPGs.<br clear=3D"none">> * Critical= success can be negated. While analysis shows that the average number of cr= itical<br clear=3D"none">> results will increase there is the subjective= impact to enjoyment of having your critical<br clear=3D"none">> success= negated.<br clear=3D"none">> * Thump Fest. - because there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting<br cle= ar=3D"none">> more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative= solutions.<br clear=3D"none">> * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling = feels more luck dependent (i.e. being lucky with low<br clear=3D"none">>= dice rolls counts for more than being skilled).<br clear=3D"none">><br = clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">> I have attached an expanded and = corrected (change to EN chances was out) impact analysis<br clear=3D"none">= > comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the Curr= ent and New numbers as<br clear=3D"none">> well as the difference betwee= n them.<br clear=3D"none">> Attached as both image and pdf (the content = of both is the same).<br clear=3D"none">> NB1 the last grid is Misses wh= ich is just the invert of Hits but included because I found it<br clear=3D"= none">> easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defen= ce and ripostes.<br clear=3D"none">> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the cha= nce of hitting never dropping below 1% which means a<br clear=3D"none">>= roll of 30 or less will never be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play<br clear= =3D"none">> the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then= the current riposte chance is<br clear=3D"none">> capped at 99 not 69 a= nd the change for defence > SC is even more extreme.<br clear=3D"none">&= gt;<br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">> Cheers, Stephen.<br clear= =3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"no= ne">> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote:<br clear=3D= "none">>> Special DQ Gods meeting <br clear=3D"none">>> Sunda= y the 9th of November<br clear=3D"none">>> 1:00 pm onwards<br clear= =3D"none">>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland.<br clear=3D"non= e">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Greetings all,<br clear=3D"none">&gt= ;><br clear=3D"none">>> I email this to the DQ email list, as an a= genda item for the special DQ<br clear=3D"none">>> Gods meeting I am = calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:00 pm 39<br clear=3D"none">>> Sackville Street Grey= Lynn Auckland.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Plea= se find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Opposed<br clear= =3D"none">>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a vote.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> I am calling t= his meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that we need<br clear=3D"none= ">>> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. T= his time<br clear=3D"none">>> will be used to discuss the proposal to= be voted on.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> I encou= rage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list<br clear=3D"non= e">>> regarding the attached document.<br clear=3D"none">>><br = clear=3D"none">>> Here is my understanding of the process involving r= ule changes of any scale<br clear=3D"none">>> and size in DQ. I have = of course written it in regards to the pending vote.<br clear=3D"none">>= ><br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Table the item (proposal) w= ith a month notice of a meeting. (That is<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0= =C2=A0 this email)<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Talk about = it in a civilised way leading to fun and interesting<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dis= cussions.<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 3. Have the Gods meeting = on the 9th November starting at 1:00 pm.<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins.<br clear=3D"none">>&g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between= 2:00 pm and<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2:30 pm.<br clear=3D"n= one">>><br clear=3D"none">>> If passed by vote, then we will ch= arge someone (Kelsie or Errol or Andrew)<br clear=3D"none">>> with th= e responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in the<br clear=3D"no= ne">>> Rulebook.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>&gt= ;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go in= to the Rules<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if the GMs feel (by vo= te) that they are in line and accepted. If the GMs<br clear=3D"none">>&g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted= on 'Opposed Rolling<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Combat sys= tem', then they may ask for an area to be clarified and worked on<br cl= ear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 again until they match.<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - S= ome time later, once they have been reviewed then they simply be<br clear= =3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 tabled at a Gods meeting.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> At the= same time as the above we as GMs and interested players will<br clear=3D"n= one">>> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rul= es which hang<br clear=3D"none">>> off the Proposal.<br clear=3D"none= ">>><br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These items are things= like (in no particular order): Adam Tenant :-),<br clear=3D"none">>>= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close = combat rules,<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Assassin / Warrior co= mbat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resistance etc<br clear=3D"none">>= >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 etc<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - I expect th= at these countless supporting elements will be play tested<br clear=3D"none= ">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in relationship with the above core rules (if voted= in) and then voted on<br clear=3D"none">>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in the norma= l way.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Stephen Martin= has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct this<br clear=3D"none">&gt= ;> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild meeting. I<br clear=3D"none">>> will ask Stephen to talk to this poi= nt at the gods meeting on the 9th.<br clear=3D"none">>><br clear=3D"n= one">>><br clear=3D"none">>> Kind regards,<br clear=3D"none">&g= t;><br clear=3D"none">>> Jonathan Bean<br clear=3D"none">>> = 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn<br clear=3D"none">>> P: <a rel=3D"nofollow= " shape=3D"rect">+64 9 378 6635</a><br clear=3D"none">>> M: <a rel=3D= "nofollow" shape=3D"rect">+64 21 917 173</a><br clear=3D"none">>> G: = <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect">jonobean@gmail.com</a><br clear=3D"none"= >>><br clear=3D"none">><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div= > </div> </div> </div></div></blockquote></div> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><br><br></div= > </div> </div> </blockquote><div></div> </div></div></blockquote></div><= br></div> --001a11431890905ef90507b0168d-- -- to unsubscribe notify mailto:dq-request@dq.sf.org.nz --

Subject	Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rolling Combat system
From	Stephen Martin
Date	Thu, 13 Nov 2014 11:31:41 +1300
------=_20141113113141_40462 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the key point here is that % gain over 100 has less value than ga= in under 100. Similarly in current DQ % gain once you exceed your opponents def by 99 h= as less value (it only increases your SG/EN chance). But the big difference is that in current DQ the diminished return is bas= ed on the opponent and generally scales with you. In this opposed proposal the diminished return starts at 100% regardless = of your opponent. While getting to 100% def takes a bit of effort, getting to 100% SC happe= ns fairly quickly and easily. Attached is my analysis chart modified to have SC range of 80-130 by 10s. At the level where your SC is 80-130, 50% is a decent defence for a front= line fighter so I'll use that as my example on the impact to your chance of hitting them. 80-90: +8% 90-100: +6% 100-110: +1% 110-120: +2% 120-130: +2% NB In my spreadsheet I don't have the Quality 5 (10% of SC-100) cutting i= n until 110%, hence the slightly better value of going from 110-120 over 100-110. The extra c= ritical success tiers alleviate the diminished return but not by much. What impact this will have on player behaviour is not so easy to objectiv= ely analyse. For me personally, if my character swings a weapon, I want it to hit. Fai= ling (missing) is no fun and it doesn't matter what hoopy damage or effects it has if I can't = hit. Defensively I don't want to get stunned (then I lose actions which is boring) or killed= (no actions - even more boring). Offensively, once I am confident I can hit most of the time I want my hit= to be effective - usually this means lots of damage or some other effective or even just co= ol effect. At the moment, adding 30 to my SC usually makes a tangible difference to = the number of people I can hit so unless I already have a high enough SC to be confident of hi= tting I'll probably take that over adding 5 damage. But with the diminishing return cutting in much earlier my choice changes= to taking the +5 damage much earlier. 100% SC is achievable at low level (for a fighter type) so I think that m= ost fighters will choose the extra damage at most levels of the game. To defend against that, initially we'll all try to get our Def > 100 but = after that the same diminishing return will lead us to choose higher armour. Potentially we'll be doing that before getting def > 100 because you can'= t always defend but armour is nearly always there. This is the thinking that leads me to conclude that this opposed rolling = system will lead the game towards most fighters being as heavily armoured as they can be swing= ing the most damaging weapon they can find. If DQ was purely about knights in the middle ages then this would be an a= wesome success. But I like DQ because it has some room for a few different styles of figh= ter. Current DQ could do better and could work better for more types and I'm k= een on any change that would allow that but I believe that THIS change does not. Yes, there is a case for making further changes to open room for other fi= ghting styles but I think if we have to make a lot of exceptions to the core to achieve our g= oals then the core is not conducive to our goals and we need to find a better core. If there is a flaw in my argument then please let me know where I have go= ne wrong. Or where you disagree with my assumptions. Cheers, Stephen. On Thu, November 13, 2014 10:00 am, Ian Wood wrote: > having done this type of analysis professionally for a while now, i am = confident Dean, or I > for that matter, can make useful interpretations of the data to predict= their impact on the > game. > > Your conclusion below is flawed, however, chances above 100 are still v= aluable, indeed they > are higly weighted in a criticals based system. > > > >>________________________________ >> From: Jim Arona <jim.arona@gmail.com> >>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >>Sent: Thursday, 13 November 2014 1:56 AM >>Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Rollin= g Combat system >> >> >> >>Unfortunately, Dean's evaluation of Base Chance of this parlous system = is not going to be >> accurate. >>We cannot conclude what each point of success chance is worth, because = we cannot know what >> the result of the various quality results would be. Factors like an op= ponent's armour or base >> damage have significant impacts. We could, I suppose, posit some gener= al values, but an >> analysis that changes when the weights change does not tell us much. I= t is, at best, a guess >> to say that each point is worth 1.7, and probably a kind one.. >> >> >>We can conclude that every point of Base Chance in excess of 100 is sub= stantially less >> valuable than points below 101, however. >> >> >>In the face of a reducing return on investment with respect to success = chance, players will >> choose to broaden their path of development. In general, a system that= supports players when >> they specialise (and encourages them to stay specialised) is more inte= resting than one where >> they develop across a wide range of abilities. Especially if they are = only doing it as a way >> of using up Experience effectively. Which would never happen in DQ, be= cause, of course, DQ >> players advance their characters on the basis of the integrity of thei= r role-playing and a >> mystic devotion to an ineffable ideal which is best described by the q= uote 'It's something I >> feel, here, deep inside'. Pauses may have to be inserted to indicate t= he profundity of the >> emotions expressed. >> >> >>Consider DQ as it currently stands. There are three game engines at wor= k. >>The Skill game engine has relatively constant success chances, and the = player generally knows >> their success chance before they attempt something. Sure, there are a = few, for example >> finding / removing traps, curing poison etc, but by and large the chan= ce does not >> substantially vary. Things that do not usually take place in a dramati= c situations are >> relatively certain as opposed to those where suspense may be generated= . >> >> >>The Magic game engine has similarly constant success chances, a player = knows what their >> chance of Casting magic will be before they commit to it, although its= effectiveness may >> largely be ignored or at least ameliorated by a successful Magic Resis= tance check. In >> addition, spell casting takes 2 Pulses. A player knows what their Cast= Chance will be before >> they cast it, although they do not know what their targets MR is like. >> >> >>The Combat game engine allows for very dynamic success chances, which a= re seriously modified >> by situation and an opponent's abilities. A player cannot know until t= old by the DM whether >> or not they have hit, or if their Defense is sufficient to avoid a blo= w. On the other hand, >> it is possible to have 1 or more combat Action in a Pulse. >> >> >>So, according to the system: >> * Skill use is something that happens off stage and can be dealt with = reasonably >> mechanically. >> * Magic sacrifices Actions against certainty while Casting, but attrac= ts uncertainty as to >> how it is applied. >> * Combat allows for more Actions, but sacrifices certainty on every si= de. >> >> >> >>A unified game engine destroys this distinction, the differences are lo= st and become blended >> into the same boring event. >> >> >>This is not an improvement. Hardly any player considers spell casting a= s exciting as melee >> unless they have a way of Casting every Pulse. That is, thankfully, an= ability that is >> reasonably thin on the ground, and hopefully getting thinner every day= . This impoverished >> system will make the game less interesting. While it can be exciting t= o steal a Possible >> Spec. Grievous from an NPC, it is deeply passion-killing to have one s= tolen from a player. >> >> >>Finally, and perhaps more importantly, changing a game system does not = attract new players. >> No one is going to come along to our Guild Meeting and say 'I've come = to join up because I >> understand that you've come up with a new system and I want desperatel= y to try it out'. This >> will never happen. >> >> >>What will likely happen, however, is that some people will leave DQ on = the bones of these >> changes. Those people who may have been thinking about returning to DQ= may abandon that plan. >> >> >>Whatever conclusion you come to with these infantile changes, I will ne= ver DM it. I am >> uninterested in playing in DQ under this system as well. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On 12 November 2014 23:48, Julia McSpadden <juliamcspadden@gmail.com> w= rote: >> >>There is no confusion about the fact that the aim of the system is to a= llow low level >> characters to be able to hit extreme level characters. >>>You can write as many analysis as you like but the net effect of this = is to break defensive >>> fighters. >>>Cheers Jules >>>On 12 Nov 2014 12:42, "Dean Ellis" <deangellis@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>Hi All, >>>> >>>>I feel there is some confusion as to the concept that numbers over 10= 0, whether they be SC >>>> of Defence, become less meaningful under opposed rolling. Here is my= analysis on the >>>> subject, plus comments, with emphasis on the fact that it is my take= on the subject. >>>> >>>>If we start at 1 as a base then for each one we add to this we get th= e following: >>>>+1.0 to Tier 1 >>>>+0.4 to Tier 2 >>>>+0.2 to Tier 3 >>>>+0.1 to Tier 4 >>>> >>>>I therefore have given each point a relative value of 1.7, being the = sum of its component >>>> increases. >>>> >>>>Once we hit the first breakpoint, being 99, the value changes as foll= ows: >>>>+0 to Tier 1 >>>>+0.4 to Tier 2 >>>>+0.2 to Tier 3 >>>>+0.1 to Tier 4 >>>> >>>>So initial analysis gives each point a relative value of 0.7, though = some value needs to be >>>> given to the new tier (+0.1 to Tier 5). The problem here is it is no= t a straight bonus, as >>>> this new tier is not adding any numbers, just converting the low end= of Tier 4 to Tier 5. I >>>> have given it a nominal value of 0.05 for a total of 0.75, reperesen= ting a 55% drop in >>>> relative value >>>> >>>>The next breakpoint occurs at 248. While for most this is a stretch, = it does occur at the >>>> top end. Here the analysis becomes: >>>>+0 to Tier 1 >>>>+0 to Tier 2 >>>>+0.2 to Tier 3 >>>>+0.1 to Tier 4 >>>> >>>>Giving an initial analysis of 0.3. Again we do need to take into acco= unt the addition of >>>> Tier 6 numbers, except again it is a conversion of Tier 5 numbers, s= o its true value is >>>> hard to adjudge. I feel very kind giving both 0.05 for a total value= of 0.4. >>>> >>>>Using this analysis as a guide, my conclusion is that the value of 1 = point halves over 99 >>>> and halves again over 247 >>>> >>>>Cheers, >>>> >>>>Dean >>>> >>>>From: Stephen Martin <stephenm@aklnz.net> >>>>To: dq@dq.sf.org.nz >>>>Sent: Monday, November 10, 2014 10:39 AM >>>>Subject: Re: [dq] Special DQ Gods meeting - Proposal for Opposed Roll= ing Combat system >>>> >>>> >>>>Correction to the analysis (thx to Dean for picking it up), EN & SG c= hance for old system >>>> was >>>>calculated off the capped SC (max of 99) rather than the raw SC-Def s= o all SG/EN cells >>>> where >>>>the SC - Def > 99 were too low. >>>>Sorry about that, updated pdf is attached. >>>> >>>>For those that weren't there and haven't heard. >>>>The vote was passed to put the Version Kelsie sent out into PlayTest = but not into >>>> Probation. >>>> >>>>This means that games testing opposed rolling are expected to use thi= s version and provide >>>>feedback on this version. >>>>If not play testing this then they should be playing standard DQ comb= at. >>>> >>>>This Play Test is expected to last up to a year before it is progress= ed forward or dumped. >>>> >>>>Cheers, Stephen. >>>> >>>>On Fri, November 7, 2014 12:28 pm, > Stephen Martin wrote: >>>>> I have tried to summarise and group the raised issues without argui= ng for or against >>>>> them. >>>>> Hopefully this can be considered a list of issues/impacts that are = either accepted or >>>>> addressed as part of the discussion and acceptance/rejection of thi= s proposal. >>>>> Apologies if I have missed anyone's raised issues or mistakenly lum= ped them in with one >>>>> of the >>>>> issues below. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Game Balance >>>>> * Statistically, the number of EN & SG results are increased. >>>>> * Statistically, unbalanced opponents will become less unbalanced. = High SC vs Low defence >>>>> will >>>>> now miss 10-20% of the time rather than 1%. Low SC vs High Def will= hit 10-30% of the >>>>> time >>>>> rather than 1%. >>>>> * 'Agility Fighters' (sacrificing armour for high defence) will get= hit significantly >>>>> more >>>>> often making this a less viable character choice. >>>>> * Damage/Armour increases in relative > value to SC/Def (once % is over 100). >>>>> * Dice Roll modifiers increase in impact now that they apply to def= ence as well as >>>>> offence. >>>>> * Unknown flaws and issues - the current system has flaws which are= known and worked >>>>> around, >>>>> any new system will have flaws which could unexpectedly disrupt bal= ance until they are >>>>> found >>>>> and fixed or worked around. >>>>> * Existing items and abilities are (mostly) balanced to work with t= he current system, >>>>> many >>>>> will need to be changed to achieve equivalency under the new system= . >>>>> E.g. Rune Armour 25% & 5 vs Earth Armour 42% & 1. >>>>> >>>>> Speed of Combat >>>>> * Opinion seems divided whether the new system is faster. A very su= bjective and >>>>> polarising >>>>> issue. I think these cover most of the points raised: >>>>> - Any new system or change will slow things down until everyone bec= omes familiar and >>>>> adjusts. >>>>> - Waiting on the resolution of the > defence before the potential damage can be resolved >>>>> requires a synchronous resolution of each attack which is usually s= lower than the >>>>> asynchronous >>>>> resolution that can be applied to current DQ. >>>>> - Consulting charts and tables to resolve actions slows things down= . The resolution of >>>>> the new >>>>> system can be done mentally (the same is true of the current system= ) but some people will >>>>> always need the charts and tables. >>>>> - Preparation, rules familiarity, and concentration/discipline prob= ably have a greater >>>>> impact >>>>> on run time than the rules themselves. >>>>> >>>>> Drama/Enjoyment >>>>> * Consulting charts/tables detracts from the 'face time' of RPGs. >>>>> * Critical success can be negated. While analysis shows that the av= erage number of >>>>> critical >>>>> results will increase there is the subjective impact to enjoyment o= f having your critical >>>>> success negated. >>>>> * Thump Fest. - because > there is always a chance of hitting it may encourage simply hitting >>>>> more rather than trying to find alternate or more creative solution= s. >>>>> * Element of Luck - the opposed rolling feels more luck dependent (= i.e. being lucky with >>>>> low >>>>> dice rolls counts for more than being skilled). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have attached an expanded and corrected (change to EN chances was= out) impact analysis >>>>> comparing Current DQ with the proposed change. Also including the C= urrent and New numbers >>>>> as >>>>> well as the difference between them. >>>>> Attached as both image and pdf (the content of both is the same). >>>>> NB1 the last grid is Misses which is just the invert of Hits but in= cluded because I found >>>>> it >>>>> easier to refer to than the hits chart when thinking about defence = and ripostes. >>>>> NB2 the Riposte chart is based on the chance of hitting never dropp= ing below 1% which >>>>> means a >>>>> roll of 30 or less will never > be riposte-able under the current rules. If as some people play >>>>> the riposte chance is based on (SC-Def even if below 0) then the cu= rrent riposte chance >>>>> is >>>>> capped at 99 not 69 and the change for defence > SC is even more ex= treme. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Stephen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, October 12, 2014 7:17 pm, Jonathan Bean wrote: >>>>>> Special DQ Gods meeting >>>>>> Sunday the 9th of November >>>>>> 1:00 pm onwards >>>>>> 39 Sackville Street, Grey Lynn Auckland. >>>>>> >>>>>> Greetings all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I email this to the DQ email list, as an agenda item for the speci= al DQ >>>>>> Gods meeting I am calling on Sunday the 9th of November 2014, 1:0= 0 pm 39 >>>>>> Sackville Street Grey Lynn Auckland. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please find attached a MS Word document for the Proposal for Oppos= ed >>>>>> Rolling Combat system. I wish to table this for a > vote. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am calling this meeting for the 9th of November as I feel that w= e need >>>>>> more time than the normal 15-20 mins before the Guild meeting. Thi= s time >>>>>> will be used to discuss the proposal to be voted on. >>>>>> >>>>>> I encourage all open and respectful debate on the DQ emailing list >>>>>> regarding the attached document. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here is my understanding of the process involving rule changes of = any scale >>>>>> and size in DQ. I have of course written it in regards to the pend= ing vote. >>>>>> >>>>>> 1. Table the item (proposal) with a month notice of a meeting. = (That is >>>>>> this email) >>>>>> 2. Talk about it in a civilised way leading to fun and interest= ing >>>>>> discussions. >>>>>> 3. Have the Gods meeting on the 9th November starting at 1:00 p= m. >>>>>> > 4. Discuss the proposal for up to 90 mins. >>>>>> 5. If we have a Quorum (which I expect) then a vote between 2:0= 0 pm and >>>>>> 2:30 pm. >>>>>> >>>>>> If passed by vote, then we will charge someone (Kelsie or Errol or= Andrew) >>>>>> with the responsibility of writing up the actual Rules to go in th= e >>>>>> Rulebook. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Once written (some time later) these core rules will go into = the Rules >>>>>> if the GMs feel (by vote) that they are in line and accepted. I= f the GMs >>>>>> feel the 'fleshed out Rules' do not match the voted on 'Opposed= Rolling >>>>>> Combat system', then they may ask for an area to be clarified a= nd worked on >>>>>> again until they match. >>>>>> - Some time later, once they have been reviewed then they simpl= y be >>>>>> tabled at a > Gods meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> At the same time as the above we as GMs and interested players wil= l >>>>>> continue working on the supporting elements of the combat rules wh= ich hang >>>>>> off the Proposal. >>>>>> >>>>>> - These items are things like (in no particular order): Adam Te= nant :-), >>>>>> Defense, Special attacks like trip or disarm, Riposte, Close co= mbat rules, >>>>>> Assassin / Warrior combat bonus, Death aspect bonus, Magic Resi= stance etc >>>>>> etc >>>>>> - I expect that these countless supporting elements will be pla= y tested >>>>>> in relationship with the above core rules (if voted in) and the= n voted on >>>>>> in the normal way. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stephen Martin has pointed out that the GMs may wish to direct thi= s >>>>>> substantial change to a general vote of the players at a Guild > meeting. I >>>>>> will ask Stephen to talk to this point at the gods meeting on the = 9th. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Kind regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jonathan Bean >>>>>> 39 Sackville St, Grey Lynn >>>>>> P: +64 9 378 6635 >>>>>> M: +64 21 917 173 >>>>>> G: jonobean@gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> ------=_20141113113141_40462 Content-Type: application/pdf; name="OpposedRollsAnalysis_SC80-130.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpposedRollsAnalysis_SC80-130.pdf" JVBERi0xLjQKJf////8KNDYgMCBvYmoKPDwvTGVuZ3RoIDI0NzQKL1N1YnR5cGUgL1hNTAovVHlw ZSAvTWV0YWRhdGEKPj4Kc3RyZWFtCjw/eHBhY2tldCBiZWdpbj0n77u/JyBpZD0nVzVNME1wQ2Vo aUh6cmVTek5UY3prYzlkJz8+Cjx4OnhtcG1ldGEgeDp4bXB0az0iMy4xLTcwMSIgeG1sbnM6eD0i YWRvYmU6bnM6bWV0YS8iPgogIDxyZGY6UkRGIHhtbG5zOnJkZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv MTk5OS8wMi8yMi1yZGYtc3ludGF4LW5zIyI+CiAgICA8cmRmOkRlc2NyaXB0aW9uIHJkZjphYm91 dD0iIiB4bWxuczp4bXA9Imh0dHA6Ly9ucy5hZG9iZS5jb20veGFwLzEuMC8iPgogICAgICA8eG1w 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